Doing Head Gaskets on a 09

[chuck jones]

Willie:

Looking at the work invoice for the head gasket repair, I see they replaced both gaskets with 11044-9N01A and 11044-9N01B which represent the left and right side head gaskets....so the numbers match with what you posted.

I also see that the entire job also included a list of 22 other gaskets, bolts, seals, washers, studs etc etc etc....so the replacement of the head gasket didn't simply involve removing and slapping in a couple of other gaskets...I still don't know why it required the replacement of 7 head bolts, but it appears that the job they did was complete and that they were fairly meticulous in finding and replacing any rusted nuts, bolts etc.

I am informed that Nissan is aware of the increasing number of failing cat converters due to rusting out along with the ongoing issues of the transfer cases and head gaskets. I believe the cats are warrantied under federal emission standards for 80K miles, after that, YOU are on the hook for about $950 for each cat, although both cats dont' have to be replaced at the same time...however the old adage about "since you're aready in there and paying for the labor" might apply if it looks like the other side is rusted to some degree and my pay you to go ahead and replace both. I'm wondering if there's enough grousing from the Nissan MO community to warrant Nissan coming up with something akin to the extended warranty solution they did on the CVT tranny....which would be a corporate effort to instill a higher degree of confidence in the longevity of their MO product lines. If this is going to be their flagship and they intend to compete with the MDX, RX, Hundai, Subaru, and other similar crossovers, they're going to have to address some of these recurring failure issues or lose their market position. I have no idea how well the other Nissan models are holding up, although there was a comment about the Altima not having as many of the same issues as the MO even though it shares many of the same parts....dunno....can only guess at this point.

[turbizzy]

Originally Posted by chuck jones

The service report also noted that the"heat shield became detached during removeal of the (head?) bolts and the holes had to be tapped and replaced with seven new bolts."

Yeah they're talking about the exhaust manifold heat sheild bolts. On the second gen Murano there are 3 bolts on the rear sheild and 4 on the front manifold's sheild. These bolts are usually one time use only as the threads tend to seize due to their "locking" design so pretty much any time they are removed... we replace em! Sometimes the threads will seize/rust inside the manifold and break off requiring us to drill them out and repair the threads. Trust me, its not that big of a deal!

Originally Posted by chuck jones

...they checked the head and mating surface for warpage and found that the warpage on the block was "within specs". I don't know how you would read that, but to me it says that the surface was a bit warped, but not enought to require machining....but still just a tad it or only a little bit warped....confidence waning???

Yes, it is true not all mating surfaces are completely true and straight especially with assembly line casting procedures... its impossible! Therefore nissan has certain warpage limits (i think 0.13mm?) on the cylinder heads and block deck. Again... you have nothing to worry about, this is why cylinder head gaskets are used, to correct compression ratios and ununiform castings, etc. This is true in all manufacturers. The tech has to document this stuff for warranty purposes.

Originally Posted by chuck jones

THEN....it was also noted that during the reinstallation of the of the Y pipe, (they had to pull the engine and tranny to do the heads) the bolts and tapped threads were rusted and would not allow the bolt to be reinstalled...which ALSO required the replacement of new bolts for rusted ones and a re-tapping of the threads that they mated to. (Must have had to really use some force to take out a rusted bolt in order to require re-tapping) Where in the hell is all the water coming from that rusts all these bolts, nuts etc? This has been a Calif Car since it's birth...unless somewhere in it's jaded history it has been sitting in water somewhere...which is an issue I'm going to be looking into very carefully....we have had some floods, and although when I had it racked up before, I looked underneath and it was clean and had no noticeable digns, dents etc...however I'm not sure where this rust is showing up...on top of the cats and Y pipe? Plus I managed to get a copy of the Certified Pre-owned inspection report...no notation there.
Dunno.......confidence??? It's falling off fast.

This is common too, cast iron will always eventually rust by nature especially when going through numerous heat and cold cycles and when rain, water and dirt hit it all the time.

The only reason they are even mentioning this is because they need to show nissan how much additional time was spent on other crap, on top of the head gaskets to justify what the dealer is asking nissan for labor reinburstment.

Originally Posted by chuck jones

I also see that the entire job also included a list of 22 other gaskets, bolts, seals, washers, studs etc etc etc....so the replacement of the head gasket didn't simply involve removing and slapping in a couple of other gaskets...I still don't know why it required the replacement of 7 head bolts...

I think you are still talking about the heat sheild bolts... but just FYI, each cylinder head has 8 head bolts so thats 16 total per engine. These bolts are "torque-to-yeild" aka "stretch-bolts" and regardless of what you think you know... nissan does say you CAN reuse them IF they aren't stretched passed a certain measurement (specific measurement taken by counting threads in a certain area) however, some techs feel that they don't want to risk reusing a head bolt so they replace them (which is fine, just kinda gotta "tell" nissan they were out of spec lol). So in reality... they shoulda replaced 16 head bolts! Not needed but thats how i do it...

Chuck... i think you worry too much

[chuck jones]

Izzy: I think you are one person I would defer to. As a master mechanic, you know your stuff. There's another discussion going on about whether the fellow should consider buying an 09 because of all the negative comments posted.

I think to level the playing field as Orzel said....most folks post here because they've encountered some sort of problem. Some of the problems are actual, others perceived or concluded by virture of a lack of knowledge....they don't post when they have a car that has given them outstanding service....so your comments are appropriate and well taken. Perhaps I do fret too much about the small stuff. It just seemed that the list of things they had to do was inordinately long...but now as you explain that they have to justify to Nissan why they charged what they did, it makes perfect sense. I was actually thinking of trading the car in on a new MDX, RX or some other line, but other than the issues I've posted, it still remains as one of the most comfortable, well appointed, most reasonable (for what you get), and quiet cars I've owned. I'm 70 now and bought the car with all the warranties because I wanted this to be my last car...then $hit starts happening, and I begin to second guess the wisdom of my decision to have purchased this car in the first place....however after seeing your explanations, I do feel a bit more at ease. In truth, when the parts list started mentioning all the rusted bolts and nuts, I immediately envisioned the car having been in a flood or some condition where it sat in water which contributed to the rusting parts. Since many of the the parts you mention come from the exhaust manifold, it's reasonable to expect those to become brittle due to constant heating/cooling, and break off when trying to extract them, then requiring re-tapping or perhaps a heli-coil.

I do thank you for your detailed explanation of the point-by-point rebuttal of what seems to have been some misplaced concerns on my part. I'll take your advice and move out of the fret column...and be thankful that all the work was covered under warranty....however I would still encourage those folks who are approaching their 5/60 warranty thresholds to have their head gaskets checked for leakage. If it's a small leak now, it can only continue to get worse as time goes by so you might as well have it taken care of under Nissan's warranty. The same issue may also be true when it comes to the degeneration of the catalytic converters. They are apparently prone to rusting at the weld points and breaking down. These parts cost about $900 each and should probably be checked periodically while your car is under the extended warranty for the cats.

I actually did go down and talk to the Service Manager at Nissan about the invoice that indicated the rusted nuts, bolts, and re-tapping and thread-chashing that was required and expressed my concern that the car may have been sitting in water that would cause the rust.... and he pretty much mirrored Izzy's comments...so perhaps I do fret too much and need to kick back and enjoy the ride.

[Orzel]

Pretty easy to get paranoid after reading some of the contributions to this forum. Yet, if you go to the Lexus forums, Toyota, Ford, BMW, Mercedes et all, you'll run into similar concerns over varied automotive systems. Heck, the standing joke around our officer is that you never really own a BMW, the Service Manager just allows you to drive it on occasion. No cars are perfect. My attitude is that if it ain't broke, why worry it to death - that's not going to solve a thing. If you have a concern, then take it to the dealer. If it's really broke, then push for the warranty to cover it. Otherwise, sit back and enjoy the ride! I've owned more cars that I can count, we really are lucky in this day and age, as they, the cars that is, are better built, safer, and last longer. I recall vivdly having to do tune-ups every 5 to 10k miles, brakes at 10k, and having constant breakdowns, towed to dealer to have it fixed and having the same issues a month later.

[crazydude]

Had same problem with my Transfer case and Head Gasket. Tech replaced and fixed bth of them.

[chuck jones]

With the extended warranty to 120K on the CVT there's not much concern anymore, HOWEVER, the transfer case remains as a major concern because it seems to be failing with gasket leaks and other anomalies. The TC is only warrantied up to 60K miles as part of the limited drive train warranty...so I would recommend that when you start getting near that magic 60K mark, you have the car racked up and have the TC checked out for leaks or other signs of potential failure. Im coming up on 58K and although Nissan found it was leaking, they replaced the defective seal with a new(er ??) version. I'm hoping that the new(er) version has corrected what appears to be a recurring problem otherwise you can be prepared to eat around $4K for a TC replacement or potentially a bit less to replace the seal. Other than that I have enjoyed the car although as some have noted, I can be a bit anal on some issues (TurboIzzy has me on 5 mg of Valium daily to keep me off the MO forum)

[Orzel]

Maybe need to up the dosage on that Valium? You know I'm kidding!

So far, we have had zero issues with our 09, but then we just turned over 20k miles. The x-fer case is probably the only thing that really concerns me.

[chuck jones]

Orzel: In truth...I really do like the car. I like the LE for all the extras it has in it...I love the diamond white withe the 20 inch platinum wheels and platinum roof rails. It's a classy looking vehicle...but I just have a nagging feeling about the overall longevity.....and I don't want to go anal again....I did up the dosage to 10mg X2 daily........however the TC does represent one of the major potential flaws with the biggest price tag and with all the failures, Nissan still holds off on extending the warranty. Why? Most likely because of the frequency of failure and the amount of money it would cost to keep replacing them.

Porsche had the same sort of problem. (I had three Porsches) The 99-2003 996's had a recurring intermix issue where the heads would crack and the coolant would intermix with the oil...which did really nasty things to the bearings and internals. They also had problems wiht the intermediate shafts that broke and made the car sound like bolts in a coffee can ...so they came up with a policy of not fixing them...they had the dealers pull them and ship them back to Porsche and you got a new (rebuilt) crate engine. That way you couldn't get into it and see exactly what was going on. Since then, they found a casting problem in the metal sleeves that went into the blocks, as well as the intermediate shaft bearing failures...but wouldn't cop out to it...and who is going to bi7ch if they send you a new engine? That worked fine while it was under warranty, but when it went out of warranty, you were looking at around $17K for an engine (non-turbo 996 C2). It's funny, but I had a Dodge one ton dually that I put 120K miles on. I pulled a 14,000 pound fifth wheel, a big boat and never had a hiccup...never wouldn;t start, never had an accessory go bad, transmission was solid as a rock....but now that I'm in a really nice car with all sorts of accessories and comforts, I wonder about the longevity and reliabiolity. Time for my medications.

For a while Nissan had sort of in a policy of just replacing the TC, however I think Izzy mentioned that he's been repairing them in certain instances. Even with a replacement, there's no absolute that the replacement won't start leaking with the same problem as the original. It appears to be just a bad design issue that for some reason they won't re-tool the casings. They were supposed to have done some modification to the new seals that corrected a lot of the leakage incidents....but we'll just have to see. It's the prospect of eating $4K that nags at me. Otherwise, it's a nice car for the money.

[2young2retire]

Not all vehicles are problem childs. We recently traded our '04 SE for an '11 LE and could not be happier. The '04 had right at 100k miles on it and the only problems was the alternator recall and the rocking drivers seat. Both fixed without any problems. FYI, it still had the original brake pads on. I checked them at about 90k miles when I changed the accessory drive belts and there was still plenty of pad left.

[nafddur]

Originally Posted by chuck jones

Nissan still holds off on extending the warranty. Why? Most likely because of the frequency of failure.

You're exactly right. The TC failure frequency isn't high enough to require a warranty extension. A problem for a handful of Mo owners - of course! But for the majority of us, nope.

[downwind4final]

Those with leaking HG: How strong was the coolant smell?
I have a 2011 with only 5k mi and seem to notice a very slight whiff of coolant outside (never inside) the car occasionally. It seems that it is when the AC is used. I have popped the hood to inspect just after shutting down on several occasions when I have noticed it and get the faintest of coolant smell that dissipates almost immediately. Got under car, no crust or indications of leak (thanks for pic turbizzy). I marked reservoir with dry erase pen and not getting lower.
I traded from a VW because it was such a headache. I'm hoping I don't have a problem.

[chuck jones]

Many times, there's no coolant smell at all....it depends upon the severity of the leakage. Turboizzy posted a very detailed set of pictures of a leaking head gasket...you have to go to the archives and look for the subject of head gasket.....

Mine was leaking but from that back two cylinders....not enough to drip coolant down onto the floor, but enough to put a crusty residue on down the side of the engine block. You have to get under the car or look way in the back at the top of the cylinder to see if there's crusty residue there.

If you can have the car racked up on a lift it's easier...I had both head gaskets replaced under the drive train warranty. I never did smell any coolant smell. The service dpeartment found the leak when they were servicing the car. It didn;t cost me a thing....which was a blessing.

[downwind4final]

Originally Posted by chuck jones

Many times, there's no coolant smell at all....it depends upon the severity of the leakage. Turboizzy posted a very detailed set of pictures of a leaking head gasket...you have to go to the archives and look for the subject of head gasket.....

Mine was leaking but from that back two cylinders....not enough to drip coolant down onto the floor, but enough to put a crusty residue on down the side of the engine block. You have to get under the car or look way in the back at the top of the cylinder to see if there's crusty residue there.

If you can have the car racked up on a lift it's easier...I had both head gaskets replaced under the drive train warranty. I never did smell any coolant smell. The service dpeartment found the leak when they were servicing the car. It didn;t cost me a thing....which was a blessing.

I put the car on ramps and got under it. Nothing but clean where head and block meet. I can see all but the far ends. Just occasional smell has me concerned.

[turbizzy]

Look in between your intake manifold and heads looking from the driver's side fender area.

[Ducman82]

had a hot smell back at 59k... dealer said all looked good. now 10k later i see this.... oil looks good. sending out a sample to blackstone to be tested. looks to be the external leak everyone gets. thoughts/.