| Chezman29 |
This is soooooooooooo discouraging to see this many mechanical failures this early in the game.
I absolutely can't believe it.
And people gave ESEMES crap about buying an FX. At least he has piece of mind now.
We luckily haven't had any problems yet, and we have 1000 miles on it. But to just hear other peoples stories just burns a hole in me........................
Chez:16: :28: :25: :25: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I would be :16: my brains out if we didn't pay the extra $1200 for the Gold preferred 7yr warranty. I doubt these trannies will make it past 3-4. Just my humble opinion from being a previous Master Mechanic. |
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| CVeeT |
Beg to strogly disagree with ypu.
No problem to speak of here. |
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| hfelknor |
It's a numbers game on the one hand and it is intensly personal on the other.
Chez is an ex mechanic. He has a warped view. I know, I used to be one (Computer Hardware - Big Iron) . When people would ask what was the best disc drive to get for instance, I felt uncomfortable in answering.
After all, the only ones I saw were broken.
No one ever called me out to look at a good one.:D
And I didn't know how many had failed overall. I just know how many I had seen.
I also didn't know how many had been sold.
And to top it all off, I didn't know the base target number for warranty failures.
That's the numbers we don't know here.
As for the problems and number I have seen here, MOST are very understandable and will be matched by your basic Toyota (BAD engines!) and Hondas (BAD Transmissions) .
But we are just not in a position to talk about a lot of failures.
We just don't know and ALL cars have failures and MANY are infant mortaility type failures.
OTOH if it is YOUR car that is back in the dealer for the 3rd time in the first year, you don't CARE that CveeT hasn't had a problem.
IMO, I am mildly dissappointed.
I now have to take it in for the "Tighten the sreering rack" thump.
Cmon folks, this is workmanship.
ESPECIALLY since this is a 6/03 build.
I haven't had ANYTHING like this on my previous cars for 15 years.
But I still love the car.
OK, make that "like" the car.
:cool:
Homer |
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| rtking |
... imagine paying $55K for a 2004 Audi S4 and having the motor swallow a valve with under 300 miles on the odo. Or have the transmissions fail with under 1000 miles on it.
Or what about the BMW M3s that seize their motors? And BMW not requires M3 owners to use a weird 0w-60 motor oil and pay $12 per quart for it?
I guess all cars have their problems, but it's nice to buy a car that has LESS problems than others. After all the problems I've had with Ford, I'll never buy another Ford product again. But there is so little wrong with my Murano (only the steering clunk) that I'm in a state of bliss about how good the car is. I guess it's all perspective.
Bob K. |
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| thecanuck |
quote:
Originally posted by rtking
I guess it's all perspective.
Bob K.
How true. When compared to my previous Nissans, of which there have been (or are) 4, the MO is definitely the most "problematic" of the lot. However, when compared to the GM products I used to purchase prior to my "conversion" with my first Pathfinder, all the Nissans I've owned, including the MO, are fantastic. And what makes the whole situation easier to swallow are the Nissan service depts. I know there has been some service dept slammin' on our site here but ALL my experiences across the country (except for one) have been exceptional. Maybe I've just been lucky -- I don't know. But so far, all things considered, the MO is still feelin' sweet.:roadtrip: |
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| Chezman29 |
Homer has got it right. It is just sad to see the poor workmanship so far. These cars done even have 10,000 miles on them yet and there are a lot of little issues that add up.
Like I also explained to my wife. Most of the time, you don't hear from people on message boards that don't have problems, cause they have no need. So there are thousands of people that are having no problems at all, as we are as well so far. But overall the problems that are here are Quality Assurance issues mostly. That is the sad thing on a vehicle that costs so much.
Let me put it this way. Read consumer reports on this vehicle in 6 months and 1 year from now and you will have a general idea of how it fairs against other vehicles of the same type.
I am completely happy. I love driving it. I just feel bad for those people that say I just spent $32k and my car has been in the shop 21das in 6 months.
Or look at your exhaust tips, they aren't even welded on, or bolted on, nothing. They are pressure fit. If you want, go twist it off, it comes right off, and then you can just put it back on. Stainless steel at that, not even shined to match the rest of the chrome. Mine is not the only one this is going to fall off, believe me. You hit anything back there, like a parking block, and its gone. I bought some nice Chrome one at Walmart that look sweet as can be for $12. A little longer, same shape. Black where the bolts are so you can't see them, and far enough back. Same taper and all. They look like what SHOULD have come one a vehicle of that type. Instead they put some $3 pressure fit stainless ones on.
Or the poor lady with a broken computer at barely any miles, and they don't even give her a loner. COME ON, this isn't a kia, or a yugo.
This is supposed to be a luxury SUV.
I just feel for thosee people.
Don't get me wrong. I love the vehicle, a blast to drive, GREAT in the snow. Comes with 18's. The Chrome wheels look so nice they look better than any aftermarket I have seen yet. They have some coool new design features and stuff.
My quess is 3rd or 4th year they will have this thing rocken'. Its how it usually works. My wife and I knew it and talked about buying a first year, and did it anyway cause we loved the design so much and always love to buy something nobody else has. NOBODY in this city has one, let alone Sunlit copper with Chrome wheels. I have never had a vehicle like this where we notice more people checking it out than ever before. Its a fun vehicle and we love. Just hope we got one made on a "good day".
;)
Chez
PS And I will bet you money these mechanics are learning on the job. So they are just as stumped on 90% of the problems. Because its all new to them too. They will have one or two Master mechanics that went through the factory training. But I will tell you, I went through the same thing, and you hardly ever see the same problems they show you how to fix actually happen in the real world. They are learning as they go along. This is a brand new vehicle to them too. So don't think you will be getting your car back soon if something goes wrong with the CVT or the new traction control system and other stuff. I have been there. You learn as you go. And the more you see the easier it gets, but for the next year these guys aren't going to be flagging good times and are going to HATE working on these vehicles cause they will be loosing money. If the book says it should take them 2 hours to fix it, yet it is so new to them it takes 8 hours, guess what they get paid for 2 hours. Happy mechanic? ? ?NOT
Some don't work that way, but most dealerships pay that way. the salary mechanics will be fine. The flag raters are going to hate to see you pull it in, with a problem they haven't seen. Or with a problem they have seen and the book says it takes 2 hours, and they have done 10 of them already and it REALLY takes 4 hours, they are STILL losing money.
Guess why I went into sales. I made 60k a year + bonus's, trips ect. Lived in Tokyo, Japan and paid 7.5 US taxes. Medicare and SS.
Now I am a disabled vet since my back finally went out cause when I was in the military I was a heavy equiptment mechanic and slipped a disk. Now I get a check for the rest of my life, along with some sweet pain to go with it. Gotta love that profession. I was damn good at what I didd when I did it though. When I got outof the military(at 23-I got Double ASE Master Certified while I was in the military and they paid for it all-I was one in 5000 mechanics in 94' with dual certifications like that. I worked for GM making 53k Salary diagnosing vehicles and passing them off to the mechanics. Thats mostly what the Master Technicians do, until the hard stuff comes in. If it was a new vehicle, I used Michell on Demand (computer program) if they had info on the new vehicle. The GM computers, and just general mechanical knowledge to diagnose and fix it. Diagnosing a problem is one of the hardest things to do in mechanics. Sometimes its intuition that gets you by. |
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| ZUV18 |
The Murano is nice but look at its competition (pricewise). It is not a luxury SUV. In Canada, the SL is within +/- $2500 MSRP of similarly equipped Pilots, Explorers, and I think the Highlander. When we were purchasing, it was cheaper than the Pilot and the Highlander actually. I would not consider these three competitors as luxury SUVs and neither is the Murano. The SL Murano has lots of options of luxury SUVs but I wouldn't classify it as one. Sure, its comparable to the X5 but you still get what you paid for. Im not saying $40K CAD is cheap but compared to the competition, its not that expensive. This is especially true compared to similar but higher priced vehicles (e.g. Tool-rag).
Every car has its problems and every car has its share of lemons produced. Im sorry for those that had any major problems with their Murano. If our engine decided to quit I would be mad too but IMO, I wouldn't classify a rattle as a major problem with any new vehicle.
So far our Murano has been swell except we have the infamous window rattle in the front passenger area now. It might be because winter has hit over here and the temperature has dropped. |
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| familyman |
For those who think MO has more problems than other cars.
I am not surpised to hear problems people report on this forum for the following reaons.
1. Only those who have the problems will post. If you have no problem, you would not post telling people "my MO have no problem at all"
2. Dont compare MO to your old low tech cars. With tons of new technologies in a car, it is not so uncommon to see new problems. If you want to get a car that has no problem , get a honda civic basic model with no options.
Please visit other forums and you will find same people comlaining about their cars especially high end cars. I paid 50K for my 2001 SLK320 and had numerous minor problems and I knew what I was getting in to when i bought it. None of those problems were manor enough to to change my mind.
When I bought my MO, I knew mine could potentially have the door rattle issue but that wasn't such a bid deal. I chose MO for what it is. I could've chosen ML, Pilot, X5 and etc but I chose MO for its design. I would never expect MO to be as reliable as Toyota or Honda. I would never expect my Mercedes and BMW to be as trouble free as Japanse imports.
In fact, I am in the market for a used Ferrari and I know exactly what I am getting into. :-)
Folks, it was your decision to buy MO over other cars. Enjoy it rather than complaining it. Of course I am not saying that we should be all happy with the rattling door. It sure is a problem to be fixed eventually. However, that is different than saying we got a lemon because we see lots of problem reports on this forum. I am glad people are reporting the problems so I know what I to be fixed when I experience similar issues.
Thanks and have a wonderful thanksgiving day! |
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| Doug |
| Would have to agree with Bro before me--only the sensitive complain, and overall the complaints are minor. My MO (Jan 03 build date) is flawless, the ride is the experience of my lifetime, and I love it. MOjoe |
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| Enforcer |
IMHO, the MO and the Z have few problems for a new model vehicle.
10,000+ miles on the MO and narry a problem, just the alignment off at delivery.
12,000+ miles on the Z, only problems were alignment at delivery and continued tire feathering.
With that said, lots of people post their problems on these forums, that is part of what this forum is all about. BUT comma however, most people don't come to a forum with good news. Most are looking for answers to their particular problems, perceived or real. No car model line is problem free. And the changes from 03 to 04 were not fixes to 03 design problems. So don't get overwhelmed with all the problems traffic.
With that said, I feel for you if you do have any problems, take your car to a dealer immediately and call NNA if they don't satisfy you (1-800-NISSAN1). And don't give up, stay on their arse till they get it right. |
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| esemes |
quote:
Originally posted by Doug
Would have to agree with Bro before me--only the sensitive complain, and overall the complaints are minor. My MO (Jan 03 build date) is flawless, the ride is the experience of my lifetime, and I love it. MOjoe
to take that comment one step further, it takes a very 'special' enthusiast ' to wanna conviene online , and share in the ownership of their brand (or model-specific) of car.......
its only natural that we (as a whole) will find shortcomings (and the nicieties as well) of the MO......
weigh the scales for yourself; i bet you'll still be happy..... its up to customer service to keep us (you) that way now!!!
i have alot of other reasons for trading my MO in... and believe me , the window tap was not high on my list... i really love that design, and still gawk at every one i see on the roadways (three today; one blue finally)..... |
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| Muracca |
Well, it's sad....but it must be done. After absolutely no luck trying to resolve it with Nissan, I have filed a Lemon Law complaint with the state of Georgia.
Here's my story (in brief):
In the last 6 months, my Murano has been in the shop for 21 full days.....nothing has been fixed. In fact, some things have gotten worse.
I have MAJOR problems with the loss of power steering at low RPM's (happens on a DAILY basis), The brake pedal is like a soft sponge (goes all the way to the floor boards with the slightest bit of pressure), There is a mystery rattle underneath the front area of the car (sounds like the front wheel will pop off), the window rattles (CONSTANT), the tapping and rattles from the b-pillar, theyre's a THUD in the tailgate area at every bump, and there are so many other "noises" popping up every day....I've lost count.
After the last 18 days in the shop, I decided to call Nissan Consumer affairs. I thought they were actually going to help, but I just learned today that they do not want me as a customer any longer. They REFUSE to do anything about it other than bring it in to the shop again (for the 5th time).
It's sad.......now I have to fight it throught the Lemon Law....which I will win.
I met someone at the gas station the other day who was interested in the Murano.......he's not interested anymore!
Thanks Nissan, you've lost a customert for LIFE! |
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| hfelknor |
I wish you luck.
Sorry to hear of the extended down time.
I am especially disappointed that NNA couldn't, or wouldn't, intervene.
If my Murano history even starts to look like that, it would be history.
So far, I have had it in twice for one day each. No resolution to Window pop or Squealing Brake problem.
Window pop went away as weather cooled off or because of????
Squealing brake was "unable to be duped".
But it is there every morning.
Scheduled for after Tgiving to have Steering Rack tightened as per TSB. (Thunk in the morning while turning)
I bot the car on aug 26.
I am willing to give the car even one or two more trips if necessary and productive.
It's amazing how "understanding" an owner can be........if the problem is resolved.
And how PO'd one can be, like you, when all that time is for nought.
I hope everything eventually works out for you.
Homer |
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| Muracca |
Homer,
Thank you for the "good luck" wishes.
This is my 5th Nissan, and it will be my last!
I spent way too much time with Nissan Consumer Affairs. Six letters, and several dozen phone calls later.....no resolve. I actually have 12 ages of work orders from the dealer and all the details of the 21 days in the service bay. The eveidence is pretty clear....my car is pretty bad.
The squeeky brakes are an everday occourance for my Mo....heck....that's the least of the problems.
Everytime I get in that car now......I just cringe with anger.
When I bought my Murano, I didn't even look at another car....didn't think I had to (I've loved all my Nissan vehicles in the past).
I said to the consumer affairs flunky, " I guess Nissan is telling me that they don't want my business in the future.....is that right?" He replied with, "I'm sorry you feel that way".
Either they know they screwed up and they fear the floodgate of bad Mo's coming back to them, or they truly don't care. Regardless, it's the worst customer service I have EVER received and they havce lost me forever. If I sound bitter......come drive my Murano......you'll understand. |
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| Muracca |
| Sorry for the poor spelling folks......bad typing skills. |
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| GMTURBO43 |
| I love my Murano. |
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| Chezman29 |
I love my MO too, I just pray ours stays working nice like it has.
Muracca, can I ask the other problems you had. Its good for us to know what to keep an eye out for and stuff.
That is what these forums are all about. I am truly sorry yours is beyond repair.
I know how much my wife and I love this vehicle and if that ever happened to us I don't know what I would do. We LOVE driving this thing.
Chez |
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| KSmurano |
GM - way to go, I'll stand up right behind you & say I Love my MO! :cool: It's not perfect, but what is?
With 50k+ MO owners out there their must be some other mighty happy, but silent customers!
Chez - I really don't understand how someone with a mechanics background who thought from day 1 that the trans would only last 3-4 years, ever justifies going ahead & buying the MO, even with an extended warranty? :confused: Then states that "he loves it" & hasn't had any problems yet, but seems to be writing more negative lines than Muracca. :rolleyes: A person who seems to have had more than his fair share of problems with Nissan. I like being made aware of problems just like the next guy, but I'm not going to start yelling the sky is falling until something actually happens to mine. I know missery likes company, but it needs to be real & not just "expected" problems.
Es - had actual problems that he didn't like & he did something about it. I must say I am glad Es has hung around & we will be
able to see how the FX does in the qualty/problem areas. I know I considered the FX, but choose the MO.
Muracca - I've never had a car that bad, but can imagine how pissed off I would be. I'm pretty anal & my Irish/USMC bred temper is pretty extreme. My Dodge Cvan had an electrical gremlin that took a couple of trips, but the dealer made it right. Have you tried another dealership, maybe they are the a$$ of problem? Good luck & keep us informed of the resolution. |
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| Chezman29 |
I never thought there would be ANY problems with this vehicle. Except like I said before, my wife and I were aware of the first year issues that most cars usually have and were prepared for that. Not a big deal, and they usually are fixed quickly.
I just have empathy for those that have had problems. I also have some friends still in the business. I have spoken to them about this and the CVT. They have said it should be fine, they have been out for years.
I guess my comments were shooting from the hip and not thinking it through prior to posting.
I never said from day 1 the trans would last 3-4 years. I said if that were to happen, I am happy I got the 7yr warranty.
I just know how bad I would feel if that happened to me.
I think I already stated that the main people that post here are the ones with issues looking for answers. And there are thousands of happy customers out there.
So I hope it is cleared up. I was more saying if the CVT does become an issue I am glad we bought the 7yr warranty.
Although most of these problems will be fixed by Nissan. They haven't had enough time to analyze all the issues and put out TSB's for all of them yet. When they do it will be a good day.
I am happy with this vehicle and think overall these are just isolated instances. Although it does hurt to hear when a fellow car owner buys a car and hasn't even made a payment yet and the trans goes out.
I will keep my comments pleasant and happy and not bring the moral down here. I think that is what you are overall getting at.
Thanks for the heads up. And I do love the Murano. It is a very unique vehicle with the BEST STYLING in my eyes for the vehicles available out there now. That is why we bought it.
Chez |
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| Enforcer |
quote:
Originally posted by Muracca
Sorry for the poor spelling folks......bad typing skills.
Oh hey, you ain't got nothin on me or esemes! Although since he bought the FX, his spelling has gotten better!
:22: |
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| Kris |
| Ye, I still love my MO............if only it had few more ponies........let's say 100...........but then again.............eh enjoy the moment........:D |
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| tsmjmiller |
Just lurking because I want to buy a MO. I don't mind small problems. I think that's what life is made of. We make the best of things like that. Heck, that's how I met ... never mind.
I think the sad part is that Nissan didn't help this man, and there are others out there. That's the part that makes me look at the FX. The Infiniti is adorable. More money, but money is worth spending for less stress. The Porsche is nice. But I don't have that much money.
I'll be lurking ... thank you all for your time and info. |
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| Enforcer |
| Every vehicle has it's own set of "features" and no name nor price is immune. Same goes for Lemons. As to the statistics, I'm sure there is plenty info out there somewhere... |
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| hfelknor |
And that is the truth.
Have you heard of Honda?
And their Odyysy minivan?
Considered the Gold Standard (Until the 04 Toyota mini).
You don't want to know how many transmissions cratered.
To the point that Honda didn't have them in stock and the downtime was measured in weeks in some cases.
How about Toyota?
Most reliable yada, yada, yada
Oh yeah?
Go to a toyota forum and ask about engine sludge and the PR disaster that was. MANY MANY bad motors. NOW they finally say they will replace them under warranty. (But they still don't agree 100% that the problem is with the engine)
You want a Mazda RX8?
Should be some used ones out there.
Mazda offered everybody their money back this year.
(Or free scheduled maintenance for the life of the car)
Now if you want the best small car.......Consumer Reports likes the Ford Focus.
And I'll bet that they are nice.
After all they have been almost completely rebuilt!
They just issued their ELEVENTH recall!
Or you can buy a fine Tuetonic machine like a 2003 VW Jetta.
They drive out really well.
Then the window drops to the full open position and doesn't work anymore.
Just like it has every year, on virtually every new Jetta, for the last 10 years.
Of course they can fix it. They get a LOT of practice.
Is it any wonder that some of us are just a bit surly when Auto ads come on the TV touting the new DOHC Bilgewater 3.5?
Homer |
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| sharpe1 |
For everyone having problems I feel your pain!
I have had my MO since March....I have loved it. I have 17,000 miles on it.
Over the last couple of months have developed a metal clank sound up front every time I would take off alittle hard.
Finally took it to the shop 3 weeks ago. After a hour of diagnosis they came back with a CV joint needing replaced....yikes! So they ordred a replacement and sent me home to wait.....Week later....Took it in to have new CV joint replaced and after replacement still the noise, so they ordered spline gear (not problem) and finally a whole drivers side assembly including strut. They kept car (I got to drive a nice MAX) finally after 10 day they went to put new stuff in and while getting stuff in position the heard the noise(with all stuff out).......
AND DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS?????????
at the factory they forgot to put a rubber bushing under one of the sub frames in engine compartment.....Problem solved (no major parts replaced) I still love the MO......But I am going back to get the extended warranty!!!!!!! |
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| hfelknor |
I'm hoping that they move the MO to Canton Mississippi next yera so that my next MO won't have crappy japanese workmanship.
They left the bolts loose on my steering.
Homer:rolleyes: |
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| 222max |
It can be disheartening to hear of fellow owners having such issues. But it's alsso good to keep perspective. We have 11,000 miles on our Murano and have no issues whatsoever yet.
Getting a a first generation model is always a risk. But just to keep things under control I suggest you go to the Honda Pilot forum below... quite a few unhappy campers ther as well. Granted, the Pilot has been out a bit longer than Murano but there are some 9700 responses in thier problems forum. Just food for thought.
http://hondapilot.org/forums/forumd....php?forumid=14 |
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| familyman |
Intersting.
It looks like there are quite a few Pilot owners having issues w/starting, vibrating at 70mph, leather seat sagging and etc.
The problem we are discussing on MO forum seems to be minor compared to what I just saw on honda forum. |
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| Chezman29 |
I figured most of the stuff people would post would be aestetics or things not working how "they" would make it.
It shows that the MO really is a nice vehicle, and the problems being had are by a small percentage. I would call it a very nice first year vehicle.
Those poor guys who got into the Pilot. I didn't realize the price they were paying for it. And to read the issues they are having!!!
Feel blessed you have a Murano....EDITTED TO........we're lucky there aren't MAJOR mechanical failures across the board.
Chez |
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| Doombringer |
I agree. Every vehicle has problems somewhere... Infiniti, Audi, VW, etc, etc.
My dad worked in an Audi dealership for years (part-time janitor). He heard ALL the dirt about their cars. They had some nasty problems. I don't know how Audi's are nowadays, but it goes to show you that even a primo-brand of automobile isn't free of defects. Plus tales of woe from Mercedes SUV owners, and BMW Z3 roadsters with chronically leaky rag-tops...
Heck, Infiniti FX's had a problem with the back hatch lip warping in the heat and a handful of TSBs already... it happens. It happens on new models and on existing models.
I won't say we're blessed... we're lucky there aren't MAJOR mechanical failures across the board. But we're not blessed... the MO, and Nissans in general, are not perfect. |
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| stonemaster |
My wife has a Benz (2002). Talk about expensive maintenance! An oil & filter change is $60 at the dealership. Plus, if one of the car's infamous service reminders comes on, the only way to clear it is to go to the dealer. The 'cheapest' service is $299!! Basically an oil change, rotate tires, top off fluids (must be some pretty expensive washer fluid), and take an 'inspection' of all the major systems (wheels on tight?, no leaks?, lights work?, radio works?....gimme a break). For now her warranty covers the first three years of maintenance. After that it's out-of-pocket. And that's when we get another car!!
She also had a bad spark plug. A bad spark plug!! The car only has 8,000 miles on it! They replaced ALL the plugs which would have cost a couple hundred bucks, I'm sure, if it had not been under warranty.
The good thing about M-B is their service which is top notch. We got to drive a loaner (a higher line Benz) which was pretty cool. Of course, that's all part of the higher price of their service.
So far so good on my MO, but I only have 4,700 miles on it. Had a "DISK ERROR" on my nav unit once, but it went away. I have also experienced the loss of power steering (happened twice). Have not gone in for that one yet. Otherwise, I am very happy with my 'baby'.
Also...Nissan oil & filter change: $25. Can't beat that. |
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| dklanecky1 |
Keep an eye out for that "disk error" message.
Mine worked perfectly fine for the first two months (August and September) and then started to have sporadic and apparently random disk errors.
The error frequency increased until it went for almost a week without working. Made three trips to the dealer during this time and they finally ordered a new DVD player for me. That part took two weeks to arrive (and of course during the two weeks the NAV worked perfectly every single time).
Dealer calls and says player is in, bring it in for replacement. I told him everything was working fine and lets let it go for now and see what happens. He says OK, we'll leave the ticket open just in case of a another problem.
He calls me back in 10 minutes and says no can do. The part is too expensive (and too rare) to let sit on the parts shelf >$2,000! He either has to install it or send it back.
Dealer ended up replacing the main DVD player and since everything has once again been perfect. (9,000 miles this am.) |
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| stonemaster |
Can the rest of the vehicle's software functions (trip odometers, tire pressure monitoring, etc.) still work without the Navigation DVD (due to the 'disk error) or is it all running off the DVD player? Or is the display locked on the disk error message ad infinitum?
Also, I assume all your settings (addresses, preferences, etc.) get saved in the vehicle's CPU memory even though the DVD unit is replaced. |
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| dklanecky1 |
Everything except the NAV still functioned fine including the XM SAT radio.
All of my personal settings in the NAV (address book, icons, etc.) were gone when the dealer replaced the main unit. I had to re do them but had intended on doing that anyway as I got a little carried away with the features when I first drove it.;) |
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