| Winter tires, 2 or 4? (to be or not to be!) - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| gs465 |
I read everywhere that 4 winter tires is what you need for winter driving. It seems to be the ONLY option as even the Tirerack.com will not sell you 2 winter tires without confirming that you already have 2 of the same tires.
But having a dynamic 4wd + VDC; is it really necessary to shell out extra $400 or even more (tires, shipping, installation, perhaps even an extra set or rims) and get 4 winter tires instead of 2 for the front? Has anyone tried it?
Is this another myth fueled by lawyers? |
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| njjoe |
gs465-
When many people are considering snow tires they are sometimes only concerned with improving traction during start-up and acceleration. They forget that is only one part of the equation. They also need to be concerned with braking and cornering.
Having tires with equal snow/road traction on all four wheels will make the car more stable when driving in extreme conditions and more predictable when approaching traction limits.
That's just my opinion.
-njjoe |
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| Tyler_Canada |
If you use only 2 on the front, you will have much less braking traction on the rear tires. The electronic brake distribution (EBD) will decrease the rear braking force to prevent tire slippage, in return reducing your overall braking force and increasing your stopping distance.
Then there is the issue of cornering. If you enter a corner where you have enough traction on the front tires, but not the rear, you risk a serious oversteer situation, in other words your rear sliding around. While VDC will help prevent that, it may not be able to completely stop it from happening. |
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| SIM |
Joe, it's not an opinion but a fact, heavily supported by many many years of test data.
The 4-season tires rubber compound hardens past safe traction point at around -7 celsius and this affects even a brand new tire.
A 4-season tire is designed for dry and wet pavement above 0 degree celsius. If it gets colder than this in your area, even if there is little snow and ice, your car needs winter tires to handle safely during the cold season. |
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| BikerJohn |
Definitely 4!. As SIM mentioned; it about mixing rubber compounds more than anything.
Your MO will feel like it's driving on one kind of surface at the front end and driving on completely different one at the back.
You'll actually do more damage to your drive-feel by mixing tire compound and do better just driving on All-Seasons by themselves.:roadtrip: |
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| SIM |
This being said, if you live in an area where winter tires would be needed because of the low temperature, think about this:
* Winter tires do not melt any faster than 4-season tires if driven only in the cold season.
* Unless you rent your MO for 2 years or less, you will have to buy new tires anyway, why not drive safely on winter tires and save your 4-season tires for the warmer period of the year?
* Riding safely on winter tires may save lives, yours and others.
Here we have what is called the no-fault, meaning that in any accident caused by a motor vehicle, no one can sue no one else for damages and injuries. The state takes care of fixing you and your insurances take care of the metal. If I was living in the US, I would see someone riding a motorcycle without a helmet or a car without winter tires as a freedom right. Everyone can do whatever they want, no? Well yes and no. Speed limits are there because you could injure someone else. Not wearing a helmet driving a motorcycle could only injure yourself. It shoud thus be allowed to ride a bike without a helmet. But, since we collectively ALL pay to fix the damages anyone suffers in an accident, limits to freedom have to be imposed at least here where everyone thinks that the health care system is free. Winter tires will soon be mandatory for the period between November & March in Quebec. It is unavoidable. If it was not such a big money making issue, cigarettes would also be illegal since, directly and indirectly, tobacco represents the highest health cost in society. |
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| Kris |
sorry to say it, but go cheap - pay twice!
Never put 2 winter tires on a car. Always go with 4. You need to have equal tire characteristics on every wheel. And VDC and traction control has nothing to do with it... |
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| gs465 |
quote:
Originally posted by BikerJohn
Definitely 4!. As SIM mentioned; it about mixing rubber compounds more than anything.
Your MO will feel like it's driving on one kind of surface at the front end and driving on completely different one at the back.
You'll actually do more damage to your drive-feel by mixing tire compound and do better just driving on All-Seasons by themselves.:roadtrip:
I agree with all points and I have no doubts that 4 tires is the best solution, but....
If anyone is to put only 2 tires on the front, if anything, it will improve the traction of the front. Yes, it will NOT improve the rear end, but still, you will have there what you started with---your all-season tires. I just do not see how it is going to affect the rear wheels in a negative way.
Correct me if I am wrong but a 20% of improvement is better than 0%... I am not trying to cheap skate; I just want to understand the logic. Let’s use a silly analogy: your winter boots that have slippery soles. Would you prefer to have both slippery boots or would you choose to have only one sole with a good traction while the other would stay the same.
:rolleyes: |
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| njjoe |
gs465-
That is an incorrect analogy.
If you were entering your MO in a tractor pull contest for front-wheel drive vehicles then putting the traction tires on the front would make sense. However, that same logic does not work on the road where you need to concern yourself with both cornering and braking forces.
If you have four of the same tires on your car and you encounter poor traction conditions, your car will behave more predictably than if the tires were "mixed".
If the front axle has significantly better traction than the rear, the rear-end is more likely to spin-out during cornering and braking on slippery surfaces.
Seven people responded to your post, and all seven say the same thing (eight if you include the guys at Tire Rack). If you opt to ignore our (their) advice, there's nothing we can do, it's your prerogative.
-njjoe |
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| gs465 |
quote:
Originally posted by njjoe
gs465-
That is an incorrect analogy.
If you were entering your MO in a tractor pull contest for front-wheel drive vehicles then putting the traction tires on the front would make sense. However, that same logic does not work on the road where you need to concern yourself with both cornering and braking forces.
If you have four of the same tires on your car and you encounter poor traction conditions, your car will behave more predictably than if the tires were "mixed".
If the front axle has significantly better traction than the rear, the rear-end is more likely to spin-out during cornering and braking on slippery surfaces.
Seven people responded to your post, and all seven say the same thing (eight if you include the guys at Tire Rack). If you opt to ignore our (their) advice, there's nothing we can do, it's your prerogative.
-njjoe
Ok, OK, i give up. I was not disagreeing/ignoring, i just wanted to understand. When I refer to winter driving I refer to a 'crawling back to the garage mode'. I did overlook driving at higher speeds when handling is very important. At lower speeds I think it will not make a notable difference, but again, this is why I ASKED.:D |
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| Kris |
gs465
if it just happens that you have two tires with less tread or let’s say less grip Michelin recommends to put them at the front of the car. At the rear you have to have better tires. And it is irrespective of front or rear wheel drive.
You can watch video on Michelin web site that explains this all…..
Good luck with your tires… |
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| gs465 |
quote:
Originally posted by Kris
gs465
if it just happens that you have two tires with less tread or let’s say less grip Michelin recommends to put them at the front of the car. At the rear you have to have better tires. And it is irrespective of front or rear wheel drive.
That is an interesting fact. Thanks for the info. |
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| gs465 |
What are the optional sizes that could be used for a snow tire?
In other words what will fit and look OK? (on OEM rims)
i called local sears and they have several sizes but they do not have the oem size (235/65R18), can a wider tire fit ( 255/55 r18)? |
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| BikerJohn |
If you're going to change the size of tires for snow; going wider is not the answer. You will want to go narrower if anything. That way your tires will dig into the snow as opposed to riding on top of it.
There are about 6 snow tires made by different manufacturers that have the OEM size. I would really try and stick with the OEM size if possible; if not-go slightly narrower. |
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| Eric L. |
quote:
Originally posted by gs465
That is an interesting fact. Thanks for the info.
The reason why the better tires are recommended for the back tires is because understeer is inherently easier to control then oversteer. If the good tires are in the front, the back tends to lose traction and can lead to fishtailing, something that one can control by countersteering, but this is not something most people know how to do. However, if the fronts break traction on a turn, the vehicle will understeer, and the driver tends to let off the gas or apply the brakes, which returns traction to the front tires to return control of the vehicle. The ability to more easily correct understeer is also why most manufacturers dial in that trait into their vehicles, even RWD ones. However, oversteer is more fun as it engages the driver more on the racetrack, and this is why enthusiasts (on the track) prefer it. |
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