| jdathey |
| Anybody have a remote starter installed? I went to a local installer but they had no info on the ignition bypass specs because the car is so new. |
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| dklanecky1 |
Try another dealer. I was at one today that had all the specs for the murano.
Their primary brand was Viper which I believe, is one of many brands made by the same company, DEI. |
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| Snowride |
| I will be having an Astroflex 4204 installed. Check out some of the new models available. You can now get 2 way remote starters which will actually confirm the status of your vehicle on the remote. Advertised reception distance is 2000' Click on "4204" http://www.astrostart.com/ENGLISH/FramesPRODUCTS.HTM |
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| milgrad |
| I had an Audiovox 2way remote start installed at my local circuit city. It was about $250.00 installed...Works great...I did have to give up the valet key.... |
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| darrylburke |
On a related question (since you guys have either got it installed, or considered it..)
what about the issue of theft.. since the "chip" is located with the remote starter (remove it from the key and put is near the steering column ), and is used so the car can be started without a key. then the vehicle could be "more easily" hotwired (stolen) then one that does not have a remote starter.
Does this "impact" the insurance, since the "rating" is based on the fact that there is a built in theft deterrant system (which you have now bypassed..)
?? |
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| milgrad |
| Mine is not affected....The chip is in the steering column, but it only activates when I go to start the vehicle with the remote. My remote start also has a starter kill, which will not allow the vehicle to be driven without the key in the ignition, and if the car in started via the remote start it must be unlocked with the same remote or the car will turn itself off..... |
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| darrylburke |
Milgrad: consider this
1) The person slim jim's the doro open.
2) uses a screw driver on the ignition switch and manges to be able to force it to turn.
3) The chip is in the steering column, the the "built" in prevention is bypassed
and the car starts.
the "remote starter" thinks there is a key in the ignition since the tumber is turning.. so it bypasses all the security.. |
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| Dookie |
| Don't you lose the KeyFOB functions with the seat memory as well? |
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| milgrad |
| The module I had installed with the chip only activates with the remote start. Even if they put a screw driver in it would not start. The module is powered by the remote start computer and will not release the signal with the remote start... I have had remote starts in all my vehicles and never had an issue....If something would happen, that is what insurance is for.... |
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| darrylburke |
Maybe Im a bit confused. but I thought the chip in the key was passive.. eg, then the car started, it sent out a signal, and the key chip responds. there is no "external" control to control when the key responds. (similair to rfid tags that can be powered by the signal itself)
is this not how it works???
eg. in the "Bottom" of my key is a little 3x7 mm "slot" which when I open it up, has a "solid state" chip (black slab of the same material computer chips are made of..)
there is no way to "stop" if from sending a response signal to the car when it asks for it (when you turn the key)
The way I understand it, is that once you place the chip anywhere near the vehicle then you ahve defeated the protection, and the remote starter will not provide any thing to replace it (since it cannot detect the difference from a key, and forcing the tumbler to turn with a screwdriver..) |
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| Snowride |
| I am by now means an expert on how they actually work but lets consider about 60% of all cars in the Montreal, Canada area have remote starters. If it really did disable the security system like suggested, would'nt you think the insurance companies would ask if you had one. I have used remote starters for the last 18 years and have never been asked this question from the insurance. They do ask if you have a security device (ignition cutoff) and most of the time if you do not, they will make you install one or no insurance. Muranos around here, need to have a sat tracking system installed also. |
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| jdathey |
The chip may be passive but I don't think it can be just anywhere near the vehicle to be able to start it. That is, I don't think it's an RF signal. I have three keys for my Murano. Two have the chip and one doesn't. The one that doesn't will turn the engine over but it doesn't start. I've had both keys on a key ring and tried to start the car with the wrong one and it wouldn't start. The key with the chip must actually be in contact with the ignition system to work.
I'm thinking that if one of my keys that has the chip is used in the bypass for the remote starter then in theory I could use my non-chip key to start the car because the system would receive a signal from the chip in the bypass (which is physically a part of the ignition system now). Therefore, any tool that could be used to turn the ignition switch could start the car.
Unless the computer is smart enough to know which way the car is being started... so if it's the remote that's starting it, the system expects a signal from the remote. If a key in the ignition switch is starting the car, then the signal is expected from there (mere speculation). |
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| Enforcer |
db, you are right on the money.
The chip is passive and it does operate by rf and the antenna/amplifier surrounds the ignition switch. All of these aftermarket remote starter systems essentially bypass NVIS/NATS, because you have to tape a key or the chip within receiving distance of the antenna.
NVIS: Nissan Vehicle Immobilizer System
NATS: Nissan Anti Theft System
NVIS/NATS communicates with the BCM and ECM via CAN. So, unless someone makes a remote starter system that communicate via CAN and emulate NVIS or tie into an unknown/unnamed feature not mentioned in the SM, you have to have the chip near the antenna for the ignition to work.
Also, the chips in the keys are registered using the $4K Consult-II to the BCM.
Extra keys are $40.62. http://www.courtesyparts.com/murano/keys.html |
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| darrylburke |
Damn you beat me to it.. I was looking in the manuals this morning and didn't get a chance to locate it..
where in the manuals did you find it?
[EDIT] Found it under NATS..
Also I called my insurance company to get thier point of view on bypassing the security system (since the rates are based on it being in place..) I'm just waiting to hear back from them...
[Edit 2]
Insurance company says that since there was no discount tied "directly" to the anti-theft device (above what is given for the general clasification of the vehicle) then there is no change if a remote starter is installed (and the anti-theft is bypassed) |
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| darrylburke |
I love the Nissan Service Manuals
NVIS (Nissan Vehicle Immobilizer System-NATS) has the following immobilizer functions:
Since only NVIS (NATS) ignition keys, whose ID nos. have been registered into the ECM and BCM, allow
the engine to run, operation of a stolen vehicle without a NVIS (NATS) registered key is prevented by
NVIS (NATS).
That is to say, NVIS (NATS) will immobilize the engine if someone tries to start it without the registered
key of NVIS (NATS).
All of the originally supplied ignition key IDs have been NVIS (NATS) registered.
If requested by the vehicle owner, a maximum of five key IDs can be registered into the NVIS (NATS)
components.
The security indicator blinks when the ignition switch is in OFF or ACC position. Therefore, NVIS
(NATS) warns outsiders that the vehicle is equipped with the anti-theft system.
When NVIS (NATS) detects trouble, the security indicator lamp lights up while ignition key is in the ON
position.
NVIS (NATS) trouble diagnoses, system initialization and additional registration of other NVIS (NATS)
ignition key IDs must be carried out using CONSULT-II hardware and CONSULT-II NVIS (NATS) software.
When NVIS (NATS) initialization has been completed, the ID of the inserted ignition key is automatically
NVIS (NATS) registered. Then, if necessary, additional registration of other NVIS (NATS) ignition key IDs
can be carried out.
Regarding the procedures of NVIS (NATS) initialization and NVIS (NATS) ignition key ID registration, refer
to CONSULT-II Operation Manual NATS-IVIS/NVIS.
When servicing a malfunction of the NVIS (NATS) (indicated by lighting up of Security Indicator
Lamp) or registering another NVIS (NATS) ignition key ID no., it may be necessary to re-register
original key identification. Therefore, be sure to receive ALL KEYS from vehicle owner. |
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| dklanecky1 |
Maybe I missed something here but why is the security system disabled? Isn't the door still locked?
Wouldn't stealing the car require the door to be slim jimmed or othwise forced open, setting off the alarm, then it would require a thief to force a screw driver or similar implement into the key slot in the dash, in order to force it into the on position. Then they maybe would be able to drive it off?
I was told by the Viper dealer that I'm discussing this issue with that all of their systems require the key to be in the ignition and in the on position, or when you touch the brake pedal (to shift into gear) the engine will die and will not run.
He said this was a standard in the remote starter industry because of the potential theft opportunity unless something like this was implemented. |
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| darrylburke |
the doors are locked, but it takes less then 10 seconds to jimmy opne a door, so locks are a moot point, plus they can break your windows.
"
Wouldn't stealing the car require the door to be slim jimmed or othwise forced open, setting off the alarm, then it would require a thief to force a screw driver or similar implement into the key slot in the dash, in order to force it into the on position. Then they maybe would be able to drive it off?"
you are correct, all can be done within about 30 seconds. The difference, is the ignition anti theft, int he case where you do NOT have a remote starter, then vehicle will not start, in the case where you DO, then off goes the thief with your car (since you kindly put a chip near the switch, and permananlty disabled the ignition anti theft), EDIT: forgot to add.. by turning the ignition "on" (with a screw driver) you turn off the "standard" vehicle alarm..)
your are corret as well.. it's a "security" problem industry wide for any remote starter. there are other security systems like GMs "passlock" which requires the remote starter to connect to the vehicles "bus" to bypass the "alarm" (they (not all) do not have ignition anti-theft) and let the car start.
there are varying type of "alarms" and "ignition control" solutions out there. some are better then others, but unfortuantly the solution for the MO, is to disable the ignition control (by placing the chip permanantly near the ignition.)
NOW.. there could be a better way.. think of this..
similiar to the "chip in the key" the remote starter company could place a "chip emulater" in the remote starter, which would only get triggered when you use the correct remote (for the remote starter) and not any other time. so you could try and break in (and jimy the ignition) but since there is no signal being sent (since you did not use the remote starter) you cannot steal the car..
there could be two ways to implement this..
1) put a code in the remote starter, and program the car to recogonize this chip as "valid" requires you to have a programmer for the car itself (the name used for this eludes me now..)
2) somehow make the remote starter "learn" the code from the key. (makes the starter more complex. but a more generic solution) the problem would be with all the difference frequences and codes across all the differnent car manufacturers.. |
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| milgrad |
| My remote start does what is mentioned above. It only starts the vehicle with my remote start remote. If I do not use it, the starter is killed. I can't even start my vehicle was a factory nissan key...... |
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| darrylburke |
milgard:
are you saying the you can ONLY start it with the remote??? and no Key at all????? (to me this would sound dangerous. what happens when the battery in the remote start dies.. then you cannot start your call at all)
what they may have done is taken the chip out of your key.. use a small screw driver and you can open up the key to find out.. |
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| milgrad |
| No, no not at all. If I lock my vehicle with the remote start remote I must start it with the remote or I must unlock the vehicle with that remote to start it with the key. IE If I lock my MO with the remote start remote and somebody would try to break in and hotwire it, it won't start. The remote start module has a starter bypass... |
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| jdathey |
| Interesting. The NATS antenna amp must have a very short pickup range. |
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| darrylburke |
milgard: wow. I wasn't aware that it would be that restrictive, I guess it's that the manufacturer. In my opinion I won't find it that good. what happenes when you have more the none person using the car? (one remote with the starter, one without) also issues of breaking the remote or the batteries running out..
jdathey:
I was playing around with mine today (I took the chip out of the key) and the range was about 1-1.5 inches.. so the range is not that great.. (it doesn't really need to be.) |
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| milgrad |
| I have two remotes with the remote starter....there is a way to bypass the starter kill by pressing a button under the dash several times... |
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| Yazi |
Milgrad, can you tell us what model remote starter you have? I'd like to check it out and maybe get it (I'm still sorting out all the what/if scenarios).
Tx,
Yazi |
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| ctkevin |
I purchased a Viper 591XV Responder 2-Way remote car starter from a local stereo shop (Plainville CT). The cost was high ($600/installed) but I got the following:
Single 2-way remote starter (1/4 mile range)
Single 1-way remote (1/4 mile range)
Failsafe Starter Kill
With this system I can:
Remote start the vehicle and receive acknowledgement that the vehicle is started (2-way only)
Receive warning (beeping or vibration) that the car alarm has been activated (2-way only)
It doesn't matter how I start the car and/or lock/unlock the car. The ONLY functionality I've lost is the ability to choose the horn over the lights as my indicator when I lock/unlock the car.
Regardless of what mechanism an intruder uses to break-in, if they do not have a key and attempt to move the car into drive (which requires you to press on the brake), the car will die.
While the cost is 3x that of a normal starter, I cannot tell you HOW much I love this remote starter.
http://www.directed.com/security/vi...er906V_8-03.pdf
Please feel free to ask me any questions you may have about this particular model.
ctkevin |
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| Nfilippelli |
quote:
Originally posted by ctkevin
I purchased a Viper 591XV Responder 2-Way remote car starter from a local stereo shop (Plainville CT). The cost was high ($600/installed) but I got the following:
Single 2-way remote starter (1/4 mile range)
Single 1-way remote (1/4 mile range)
Failsafe Starter Kill
With this system I can:
Remote start the vehicle and receive acknowledgement that the vehicle is started (2-way only)
Receive warning (beeping or vibration) that the car alarm has been activated (2-way only)
It doesn't matter how I start the car and/or lock/unlock the car. The ONLY functionality I've lost is the ability to choose the horn over the lights as my indicator when I lock/unlock the car.
Regardless of what mechanism an intruder uses to break-in, if they do not have a key and attempt to move the car into drive (which requires you to press on the brake), the car will die.
While the cost is 3x that of a normal starter, I cannot tell you HOW much I love this remote starter.
http://www.directed.com/security/vi...er906V_8-03.pdf
Please feel free to ask me any questions you may have about this particular model.
ctkevin
if you have the memory seating,
do you lose the functionality that it sets the seating based on what keyfob (remote) unlocks the car?
and what about the windows down feature?
-Nerf |
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| Yazi |
quote:
Originally posted by ctkevin
I purchased a Viper 591XV Responder 2-Way remote car starter from a local stereo shop (Plainville CT). The cost was high ($600/installed) but I got the following:
...
It doesn't matter how I start the car and/or lock/unlock the car. The ONLY functionality I've lost is the ability to choose the horn over the lights as my indicator when I lock/unlock the car.
Regardless of what mechanism an intruder uses to break-in, if they do not have a key and attempt to move the car into drive (which requires you to press on the brake), the car will die.
http://www.directed.com/security/vi...er906V_8-03.pdf
...
ctkevin
Kevin, thanks for the info. Sounds really slick (although $600 is kind of steep, but may be worth it).
To confirm, somehow your system still maintains the factory immobilizer/key-IC functionality, or at least mimmicks it? No taping the transponder piece to the steering column? Yet, w/o the key (not referring to the fob), it's a no-go?
Let me know?
Also, did the fact that your fob has a 1/4mi range impact the purchase decision?
IMHO, if I was 1/4mi away (or even less), and someone was jacking my MO, a) I probably couldn't get there fast-enough to stop it, and b) once I got there, I may just regret meeting the guy face-to-face in a robbery situation....
Tx,
Yazi
PS: ... you probably also lost the ability to tie a factory fob to the desired seat memory 1/2 that we have on the touring packs; not a big deal for some, but for me and my [short] wife, pretty handy feature..... |
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| ookides |
hey all...i know this is an old thread and should be put to rest...but i just gotta bring it back outta' its grave for just a quick question...:confused:
i just got my first taste of owning the finest vehicles in the world...(well at least in my opinions it is...:D )...but anywho...i got the viper remote starter installed in it this past weekend and was wondering about one thing. (the answer's probably as simple as 1+1...but i just gotta ask cuz my guy's out till tuesday and it's bugging me)...when i start the vehicle with the remote start...the fans are automatically turned on and always at 70 degrees (even though i shut'em off when i turn the car off the nite before). this doesn't happen when i use the key to start it...so i was just wondering if this is some programmed function that i need my guy to undo...or is it something else? any answer by toozday (04/06) should help ease the curiosity a bit. thanks!! :jump3: |
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| Snowride |
| There is no adjustment on the system. It basically just reverts to the climate control setting you left it on when you shut off the vehicule. Ideally your climate control should be set to automatic and a temperature which suits you, which would either heat or cool your car depending on the ambient temps. You say this does not happen when the key is used but something does not make sense. The remote system has no way of comunicating with the climate control, it simply gives it power via an output wire connected to it the same way your key does when you start it. |
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| ookides |
thanks for the info snowride...however that was the case with my MO.
when i got it from the dealer, EVERYthing turned on when i started the car (thinkin' that that's how they left it at the factory or sumpin'...so that was no big deal)...but since that first time (before the installation of the remote start system) everything's always stayed off when i first start the car with the key.
now after the remote start, the fans/AC now come on when i first start the car with the remote. however, if i were to use the key to start, nothing would turn on (in other words...just the way i left it the nite before). THUS...the state of confusion..:bonk: and the wonders if this was something my install guy did or if it was a factory thing that i just didn't know about. |
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| jaak |
It's how he's wired it. Some of your Murano is getting powered up, and other parts aren't. I expect what's happening, is there is something that normally would be powered, isn't getting power, so it's not seen on the Murano's computer network by other devices. So they're setting themselves to a default condition, instead of remembering the last setting.
Just a wild guess. I remember when I last did an remote start install, there wasn't enough relays to power every circuit that's normally powered when the key is in. |
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| ookides |
thanks jaak...i'll bet that's what it is...cuz i do remember him saying that the number of relays is what was limiting the fact that i could not keep my stereo on when the car is remotely started...
thanks guys for the info!! (i guess i can put this subject back to "rest"...at least for now...:23: ) |
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| FlyerNo9 |
Great thread guys... I'm hoping to pick out a Remote Stater by the end of the week. It's starting to get cold here in St. Louis.
What's the best bang for my buck? |
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| Tyler_Canada |
Everything in my Murano works when the remote start is on. It's gotten to the point where I keep forgetting to put the key in, and when I press on the brake to shift into gear the car shuts off.
I have a Viper 771VX btw. |
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| GripperDon |
| Milgrad When you were asked what was the detailed model of your AudioVox 2-way alarm, The question got answered by a different poster. YOURS sounds the best. Which Prestige model number do you have? Thanks GRIP :D |
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| simplesb |
| I tried to reading everything in here, but my eyes are tired. Anyways another problem that you can experience with remote start is if you have your headlight on auto, they don't seem to turn off if you had remote started your car and then later park your car. When you park you need to manually to turn them off or they will stay on. I think we discussed this in another post and as far as I know we still haven't figured out a way to keep this from happening other then taking it off of auto. |
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| dklanecky1 |
| This isn't an issue with the Viper 791VX. They come on and go off with the car. (It's installed in my 00 Maxima SE whcih also has the auto lights.) |
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| GripperDon |
| What did your Viper 791VX cost ? GRIP :D |
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| FlyerNo9 |
Went by Custom Sounds tonight and got a demo of the Viper Remote Starter systems.
The Manager showed me the Viper 160XV. He said this would be best option for my price range [~$250].
He did a great job selling it but when came down to adding up all the 'extra' parts and labor, it came out to over 4 bills. Little more than the wife and I were thinking of paying to be lazy.
So we left and decided we would spent the $400 on something a little more useful... what you ask??? How about 2 months of BABY supplies :-) My Murano is sweet enough as it is [Play Station 2 and all]. The Remote Starter would have been nice but getting up 10 minutes earlier won't hurt me.
Again great thread... the Manager was very impressed I knew as much as I did about all the different Remote systems available for the Murano. He didn't even know we could roll our windows doen with our factoy remotes :-)
ps - don't worry... our Little Murano is getting a Christmas present this year... FLOOR MATS |
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| dklanecky1 |
quote:
Originally posted by GripperDon
What did your Viper 791VX cost ? GRIP :D
Don, it was right at $600 installed (December 2003) with a second responder transmitter. I had in installed for the wife as a Christmas present (which she wasn't real impressed with until she started using it).
There are lower priced alternatives, but the Vipers come with a lifetime warranty that is serviced by any dealer (even Best Buy has them now).
I'm seriously thinking about adding the remote starter to the Murano but that's the only piece I want to add. |
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| GripperDon |
| Thanks for Info! GRIP :D |
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| Digital |
I want to get remote starter too but im worried.
Circus City and Worst Buy told me that i have to give them extra key to put it right next to ignition keyhole.
Here is the question......
What if somone breaks the window or jimmy it and get inside and with screw driver starts the car and take off....
Or....
I start the MO with remote they get inside, cut or unplug brake harness (which has only two wires) and turn the ignition with screw driver.....and take off....
I'll go with new Bulldog Starter which dont require a key since it got somthing that bypasses security only if its started with right remote. But again what if they twist the ignition and cut the brake wire? |
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