| Enforcer |
To remind me of why I bought the AWD.
:D |
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| Sw1tched |
| I also woke up this morning to find my MO also partially covered in snow. I'm as glad as you are :D |
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| Snowride |
| There forcasting a good foot or more in my area today but I don't have my Murano yet. :banghead: |
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| Snow MO |
When does yours come in?
What do you have in the meantime? |
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| Eric L. |
I had some snow fall overnight too, and driving around, I got to test out the VDC. I hit some corners at speed, and even accelerated. The VDC isn't very fast in responding, and the rear end kicked out quite a bit before the ABS chatter brought it back around. The system responded so slowly that I was able to countersteer before the VDC even kicked in. But it does work! Pretty amazing system, but you still have to drive it as carefully as you would any other car without these safety systems. It might just be me, but in the snow (i.e. any non salted street) I found even with gentle braking, I engaged the ABS. The Murano's brakes seem very sensitive to that, or maybe the lousy Eagle LS's are just weak in the snow.
On a side note, the contrast between the color of the snow and the color of Enforcer's Murano shows the nice pearl tone of the paint. |
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| Snowride |
| End of Jan delivery. :banghead: My Acura 3.2 TL typeS with stability control and Yoko winters does fairly well in the snow. Sure as heck won't compare to an AWD MO though. |
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| UncaDanno |
Eric, thanks for the reminder to everyone: you still have to be careful. Regardless the road conditions.
I have seen far too many yahoos driving around in their 4WDs in snow and ice as if they were on level, dry pavement. Then they get all torqued out of shape when they still lam into someone, slide off the edge of the world, or just sit & spin. I know of a few cases where someone in a 4WD has caused a major accident with their carelessness then had the gall to tell everyone they injured to sue the vehicle manufacturer because "the 4WD malfunctioned. It didn't prevent a skid in snow and ice." |
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| mhuckaby |
| Today I went out to my snow-covered, paved alley. I sped up and then hit the brakes; I did it a few times. I didn't slide hardly at all and almost immediately came to a stop without moving from my tracks. I like it! |
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| malaycobra |
Went out in the snow today...what a great car!
At one point I was was following and old Pathfinder who kept going sideways as he pulled away from every light. I took great pleasure in (safely!) blowing past him as soon as the road became two lanes.
What really annoyed me was people doing 10 mph when the road was just wet. Blew past them too...:D
I was a little disappointed in the VDC though. I too got sideways turning right and left and I was counter-steering long before the VDC kicked in. It is probably a good system for drivers with less experience or if you get out of shape in a faster bend.
Looking forward to testing the MO on dry twisty roads. Anyone know any near New York City? All the roads around here are straight, with far to many stop signs and traffic signals. |
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| hfelknor |
How do you guys know the VDC is working?
I drove a BMW 2 or 3 years ago with their Dynamic Control and my reactions were much different than yours.
What I didn't like about it was that it was very FAST to go into control.
It was virtually impossible to kick the rear end out.
It took the driving right away from you and SLOWED you down fairly dramatically.
I did NOT like it, but I suppose it was safe.
That is not what is happening here.
How do you know that the VDC is working CORRECTLY?
Homer |
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| Eric L. |
quote:
Originally posted by hfelknor
How do you guys know the VDC is working?
I drove a BMW 2 or 3 years ago with their Dynamic Control and my reactions were much different than yours.
What I didn't like about it was that it was very FAST to go into control.
It was virtually impossible to kick the rear end out.
It took the driving right away from you and SLOWED you down fairly dramatically.
I did NOT like it, but I suppose it was safe.
That is not what is happening here.
How do you know that the VDC is working CORRECTLY?
Homer
You can feel the VDC engage with a cacaphony of ABS chatter (the SLIP light turns on too). On dry roads, it would pretty difficult to engage the VDC, but on the snow, its very easy. Take a corner while accelerating and the rear out comes out almost immediately. |
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| UncaDanno |
malaycobra, the dry twisty roads are fun in a MO, too.
We took mine to the mountains back in early November. Being based on the Altima frame and with the large wheels, she handled quite nicely in the curves. Reminded me of the Town Ride: hung in there as if it was on rails.
Nice. |
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| trevmiesterj |
My question is this:
Our MO does not have VDC although it does have AWD. The '04 on the lot we wanted simply did not have it, and my wife and I didn't want to wait. What I want to know is if traction control is considered VDC or is the tag for the system that kicks in the AWD when it feels slippage. Or is traction control an added addition to functionality of the AWD?
Anyway, I would be nice to have it, but since I don't I stepped up and purchased 17's with snow tires. The MO performed beautifully over the weekend during our winter storm here in the mountains of Idaho. I suspect it would have been better with a VDC system, but it was pretty dang bomber with the tires-very difficult to break loose upon revving turns in packed snow and uneven slush.
If there were no laws, I would get myself a helmet and a fire suit when driving this thing-I so want to lead foot it when I am behind the wheel in any conditions...:D |
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| Eric L. |
quote:
Originally posted by trevmiesterj
My question is this:
Our MO does not have VDC although it does have AWD. The '04 on the lot we wanted simply did not have it, and my wife and I didn't want to wait. What I want to know is if traction control is considered VDC or is the tag for the system that kicks in the AWD when it feels slippage. Or is traction control an added addition to functionality of the AWD?
Anyway, I would be nice to have it, but since I don't I stepped up and purchased 17's with snow tires. The MO performed beautifully over the weekend during our winter storm here in the mountains of Idaho. I suspect it would have been better with a VDC system, but it was pretty dang bomber with the tires-very difficult to break loose upon revving turns in packed snow and uneven slush.
If there were no laws, I would get myself a helmet and a fire suit when driving this thing-I so want to lead foot it when I am behind the wheel in any conditions...:D
The VDC system includes traction control and the tire pressure monitoring system. The AWD is separate from VDC, and functions automatically whether you have VDC or not. However, AWD doesn't do much if you are spinning out a turn, that is what VDC compensates for. |
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| MVTCFP |
I too was zipping around in the snow yesterday. The MO drove uphill like there was no snow at all!
I have a question... I was watching various cars go up a snow covered hill. It seemed to me that the Jeeps (Cherokees & Wranglers) were spinning their wheels way more than the cars labeled AWD (Couple of Subaru's and a Saturn Vue). The Jeeps were climbing the hill, but the AWD crowd definitely went up in a much straighter line. Sooooo. What's the difference between AWD & 4WD? From my non-scientific observations, AWD is far superior... Survey says...??? |
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| Enforcer |
Are you sure they were 4WD and in 4WD? Were both a front and a back tire spinning?
AWD in the MO engages the rear axle when it detects slip on the front axle. In other words, it engages 4WD when needed. One of the systems, forget which one (TCS?), will detect wheel spin and lightly engage brakes.
Most 4WDs are engaged by the driver. I can only say that spinning the wheels isn't helping, it's actually worse. A case of the operator engaged 4WD and hammered the throttle. See this thread. Slow moving with light brake pressure is the way to go, acts like limited slip. Static friction is higher than dynamic.
On another note, I had a chance to play - abondoned parking lot. These tires don't seem to be very good in the snow, but then the MO is 4000lbs. VDC does work and it cuts in really fast, but it feels like it cuts in slow due to the slippery conditions and momentum - physics, plus it's hard to watch the Slip light and drive at the same time. VDC monitors your steering wheel direction. So, when you yaw (g sensors), VDC cuts in but can't correct the motion immediately due to loss of friction and momentum, you turn the steering wheel to compensate and VDC backs off. What VDC does not do is turn the steering wheel. So if you think it will turn the steering wheel for you to compensate your yaw, it don't. What it does is apply appropriate brake pressure and throttle the engine back to regain friction - contact of tires with the ground. Trying to regain static friction. You still have to point the steering wheel in the right direction to regain control.
As always, let me caveat for the 1000th time, VDC won't correct everything, it has it's limits, you can overpower it IE do something so wrong that not even VDC can save you. But it does help tremendously. And, none of this stuff helps you stop any shorter.
A side note about ABS and EBD. First time I felt it work. It will stop you shorter than not having it. But you still have to plan way ahead and leave a lot of room and go slow in slippery conditions. I could feel it kick in pulsating the brakes and it seemed to pulsate on individual wheels/axles. Will have to relook the system descriptions. |
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| hfelknor |
"I could feel it kick in pulsating the brakes and it seemed to pulsate on individual wheels/axles. Will have to relook the system descriptions."
It should under the right conditions.
The ABS is 4 channel ABS.
That's the only way VDC would work is with 4 ch.
And the 4 chan ABS is on all Muranos.
Most all cars have 4 ch now.
Homer |
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| trevmiesterj |
Alright.
I have got it now. Vehicle Dynamic Control is the name of the system that provides traction control. Traction Control is not a buzzword for another system in the AWD.
Have any of you done a test with the VDC off taking a slick corner at speed and then taken the same route with the system on at the same speed? How dramatic is the difference? |
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| Snowride |
quote:
I have got it now. Vehicle Dynamic Control is the name of the system that provides traction control.
Nope. Traction control is what prevents your wheels from spinning when you stomp on the gas in snow or on any slippery surface. VDC applies brakes and/or controls engine output to control the rear end if it starts to take off sideways. There are quite a few vehicles with traction control and no VDC. On my Acura 3.2 they call it VSA which is basically the same thing as VDC, except Acura calls it Vehicle Stability Assist. If I turn off the VSA on my Acura, I still have traction control but will no loger have automated control if the rear end swing out. Get it now? |
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| trevmiesterj |
On my Acura 3.2 they call it VSA which is basically the same thing as VDC, except Acura calls it Vehicle Stability Assist. If I turn off the VSA on my Acura, I still have traction control but will no loger have automated control if the rear end swing out. Get it now?
I think so.
Really, I am normally not this dense.:confused:
I think what I was looking for was to understand that the traction control was a system included in the AWD package, seperate from the VDC system. But in reality, this is the case as outlined by Eric L.
The VDC system includes traction control and the tire pressure monitoring system.
So on your Acura and on the MO, the Traction Control does not fall under the umbrella of vehicles that have no VDC but do have traction control. Since I don't have the VDC, I don't have traction control on my MO.
Do I have it now? :rolleyes: |
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| Snowride |
| Now we're talkin.;) |
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| trevmiesterj |
Well dogonit, now I want the VDC...
Anyway, what about this:
Have any of you done a test with the VDC off taking a slick corner at speed and then taken the same route with the system on at the same speed? How dramatic is the difference?
Just curious... |
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| Enforcer |
No, but I did it in an abondoned parking lot. See previous post.
I would not suggest trying out your VDC on a slippery corner. |
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| trevmiesterj |
I would not suggest trying out your VDC on a slippery corner.
Hard to resist, but certainly that is the smart course of action. Test driving on the street is not smart. I have done most of my action driving also in a parking lot that is snowy.
I recently posted on the Subaru site, i-club telling the members of the forum that I decided not to wait on the '05 new Legacy wagon and instead had bought the Murano. Here is part of my post:
This crossover ute is roomier than the Legacy wagon, very stylish and handles like the tires are magnetized when driving in the snow.
What is interesting was one of the responses:
enjoy all that off roading in your murano (should be comfy with those enormous wheels) and have a blast with that nice tall vehicle stability.
Perceptions are very interesting, don't you think?:) |
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| Gonzo |
| I've got an AWD but I am completely surprised at just how easy it is to fish tail an AWD car. I'm use to FWD and that always wanted to go straight. Makes we wonder if I should have gotten the FWD model instead. |
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| Halo |
quote:
Originally posted by trevmiesterj
enjoy all that off roading in your murano (should be comfy with those enormous wheels) and have a blast with that nice tall vehicle stability.
Perceptions are very interesting, don't you think?:) [/B]
Isn't is odd that the people who think they know everything know the least. |
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| malaycobra |
A wise man once said: "People who think they know everything are annoying to those of us who do" :D
In Subaru boy's defence, I also neither know, nor care, anything about a Subaru Legacy. I DO know that I am a very happy Murano jockey indeed! |
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| Doombringer |
| Gonzo, the MO is FWD by default. It only engages the rear wheels when it detects slippage. |
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| Gonzo |
quote:
Originally posted by Doombringer
Gonzo, the MO is FWD by default. It only engages the rear wheels when it detects slippage.
Hmmm I don't understand... I was goofing around in a parking lot and was fish tailing rather easily. In fact I've notice other times too when making a turn that the MO wanted to fish tail.
So lets see, if it is slippery and I do spin a little the MO turns into AWD but I've found that this makes it fish tail when turning.
Am I missing something (other than VDC) here? I almost think that manual control over the AWD would be getter. After all the only time you need AWD is to prevent from getting/or getting out of a stuck situation. No? |
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| Eric L. |
quote:
Originally posted by Gonzo
Hmmm I don't understand... I was goofing around in a parking lot and was fish tailing rather easily. In fact I've notice other times too when making a turn that the MO wanted to fish tail.
So lets see, if it is slippery and I do spin a little the MO turns into AWD but I've found that this makes it fish tail when turning.
Am I missing something (other than VDC) here? I almost think that manual control over the AWD would be getter. After all the only time you need AWD is to prevent from getting/or getting out of a stuck situation. No?
If you are fishtailing on a turn, you are driving too fast, regardless if you have AWD or VDC. The AWD does not do much in a turn, even if it does engage. AWD is mainly for standard start traction on slippery surfaces. When cornering, take it easy even if you have the VDC, its not foolproof. |
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| Gonzo |
| I agree. Its is not fool proof. I'm just surprise by it. I think I should have stayed with the FWD. Live and learn I guess. |
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| darrylburke |
Gonzo:
I noticed this behaviour right away ( I bought the MO last Jan)
it's handles more like a "rally car" then a "jeep" when it comes to AWD (even in locked)
The MO likes to fishtail.. if if you are going slow (10Km) around a corner and you step on the gas.. the MO starts to fishtail pretty good (where as a jeep would do a four wheel slide, in the direction you are going at the time)..
a few times I have detected a four wheel slip, but again it's after the rear has already started to slid out (so it's not that noticable)..
if you keep your foot on the gas, it goes pull it out of the tail slide, but not very quickly
I guess that Japanese AWD for you.. they say a 50/50 split, but the MO doesn't handle like it (in a turn) |
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| eager |
I think the fishtailing is more an indication of lateral wheel traction rather than the wheels actually spinning out under power. I have not seen any figures on fore and aft weight distribution but I am going to guess the Mo is front end heavy. I am also pretty sure the weight center is higher in the rear which would tend to unload the inside rear. Large footprint tires ( combination of width and large diameter) need weight to make them hook up thus the back end is pretty loose.
Anybody ever driven a Mini to the edge? Even on dry roads it feels like there are casters on the back corners not wheels but you just point the front wheels where you want to go and stay hard on the gas.
Don't recommend this technique on snowy roads in the MO unless you like ditches and poles. The Mo( sl awd no vdc), from my experience driving on ice and snow since early November, handles pretty decent, and brakes better than any vehicle I have driven with or without 4x4 or abs. I constantly find myself stopped a vehicle length or more back from a stop sign when I thought I was going for a ride into the middle of the intersection.
My Scout II was probably better at cornering on the slippery stuff but I think the BF Goodrich AT radials had a lot to do with that as they had serious traction in snow. On dry roads the MO blows the Scout away. The Scout used to get about 7 miles to the gallon, the way I drove it, even when gas was affordable I couldn't afford it! |
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| Enforcer |
Weights
• Curb (lbs.)
— 2WD SL 3,801
— 2WD SE 3,806
— AWD SL 3,955
— AWD SE 3,960
• Weight Distribution (%) Front/Rear
— 2WD 60/40
— AWD 59/41
• GVWR (lbs.)
— 2WD 4,858
— AWD 5,053
Exterior (inches)
• Wheelbase 111.2
• Overall Length 187.6
• Overall Width 74.0
• Overall Height 66.5
• Tread Width
— Front 64.2
— Rear 64.0
• Minimum Ground Clearance 7.0 |
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| strafaci |
FWD vs. AWD vs. 4WD
For going around corners....
If you have FWD only, your car may "understeer" meaning that at some point, the front wheels lose traction, and the car stops turning and it goes off in a straight line in a direction you don't want to go.
If you have RWD only, your car may fish tail meaning the back end will come around.
If you have AWD, the front wheels will have the power and will start to slip first. It will then send power to the rear wheels. If the rear wheels don't grab either, than your MO can act like a RWD or FWD car depending on which wheels are getting the best traction.
If you have 4WD, you are getting 50/50 power to the front and back. Personally, I find this better in snow than AWD. However, many 4WD owners fail to engage their 4WD in all but the worst weather. BUT, the downside is that 4WD SUV's are rear wheel drive vehciles when not in 4WD. On the other hand, I prefer AWD for wet roads.
And if you have Front and/or Rear Limited Slip Differentials, you'll get even better traction under any configuration.
But this next point is IMPORTANT .
IF YOU ARE NOT ACCELERATING AROUND A CORNER, YOUR MO (OR SUV) WILL NOT BEHAVE ANY DIFFERENTLY THAN A CAR! To emphasize again, once you take your foot off the accelerator, you, in essence, no longer have 4WD/AWD.
Now, if you have VDC or Traction Control, this WILL help you when you are not accelerating because it will use your brake system to control slips on any given wheel.
So, to go around a coner, slow WAY down on the straight away, and SLOWLY accelerate through the turn. Practice this in a parking lot, and you'll get the hang of it. |
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