| Kris |
SHAH ALAM, Malaysia (AP) -- A Dutch-based company announced plans Tuesday to produce affordable electric cars by the end of 2009, promising they will be much more powerful than existing models and have zero emissions.
Detroit Electric is in negotiations with Malaysia's national auto maker, Proton, to produce the car in this Southeast Asian nation and is also talking to a German and a U.S. carmaker, said the company's chief executive, Albert Lam. He declined to name the companies.
"We believe in affordable electric vehicles for the public. That is our dream ... to find innovative ways to counter global warming," Lam told a news conference before journalists test drove a sports car, a sedan and a subcompact car fitted with Detroit Electric's technology.
Malaysian Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi drove the sedan Sunday when he arrived at a National Day parade -- which officials called a testament of the government's commitment to finding green alternatives to tackle rising fuel prices.
Lam said the car will use lithium ion batteries and a motor developed in-house.
"When people tell you it (an electric car) is not practical, that it runs at a slow speed and you can't charge it, that is not true," Lam said at Proton's test track in central Shah Alam city.
An Associated Press journalist who drove the sports car felt it zoom from zero to 100 kilometers per hour (62 mph) in less than five seconds, comparable to gasoline-powered sports cars.
Most electric cars developed so far are quite a bit heavier than regular cars, weighed down by their battery and motor, which limits their acceleration.
Existing models were used for the demonstration -- the sports car was a modified Lotus -- but will create their own designs and market the vehicles under the Detroit Electric brand -- named after a now-defunct U.S. company that produced electric cars in 1907. Lam bought the rights to the name to restore its historical legacy.
Detroit Electric's chief scientist, Frits van Breemen-Schneider, who invented the motor, said it is four to 12 times lighter than existing motors and has a much higher power-to-weight ratio. It can produce 5 kilowatts of power per kilogram, whereas the best electric car in existence can only produce 0.25 kilowatts per kilogram, he said.
The 80,000 ringgit ($24,000) price tag of the car will be more expensive than conventional vehicles in Malaysia, though the additional expense would be offset by fuel savings. The car battery will have a life span of 200,000 kilometers (125,000 miles).
The company is majority owned by Lam, a British citizen, and has entered into a partnership with several Dutch, American and Malaysian investors with an investment of about $300 million over the next five years.
They are targeting about 30,000 vehicles worldwide within the first year, ramping up to 270,000 vehicles in the third year.
The cars will have a range of about 200 miles on a full charge after keeping them plugged to an ordinary electric power outlet for seven to eight hours.
Lam acknowledged a major challenge would be to set up battery charging stations throughout the country for long distance travel, but expressed confidence it can be done at least in Malaysia because of the government's backing.
"It is about conviction. If you're an early adapter, there will be some inconveniences, but I'm sure that in two to three years, there will a comprehensive infrastructure for fast charging," Lam said.
The Dutch government has given incentives to electric cars, including free parking.
"It is great news that Detroit Electric is practically ready to produce a car that has zero emission," said Jan Soer, the Netherlands' deputy ambassador in Malaysia. "All the technology came from the Netherlands. We are very proud of our tulips, our windmills and our wooden shoes, but we are more than that." |
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| zebelkhan |
| Sounds promising. Where do I sign-up? |
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| Corin |
Yeah, well, like all other companies that announce stats for vehicles that aren't in production yet, we shall see. I'm VERY skeptical of any company that states they're using a lithium battery pack and selling the whole car for under $30k.
Mind you, several other countries already have decent electric cars, however due to a lack of crash testing (which is hugely expensive) they're not available in the U.S.
I have been wanting an electric car for a very long time. Been waiting and waiting and waiting for something to come out. I've been looking at all the NEVs (Washington and Montana allows them to go 35 instead of 25) and the 3-wheeled "motorcycle-class" faster ones like ZAP and Myers Motors NmG, but nothing quite fits the bill yet.
What I want is a battery electric vehicle (BEV) that is free-way legal, I can put a carseat in, gets at least 25 miles on a charge (realistic in-town with hills range) and is under $20k. That does not yet exist, unless you do your own conversion.
Which brings us to my current plan that I'm trying to convince myself to do: Buy and old car and have it converted to BEV.
I'm looking at buying an old Honda Del Sol (one of the funnest cars I have owned) and having a local company do the conversion. I simply don't have the time or knowledge to do it myself. Problem is justifying the cost:
$3,000 1 used Del Sol in good body shape
$14,000 Conversion Costs
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$17,000 for a 12-year old car that gets 30 miles to a charge (but doesn't use any gas)
Now, obviously that doesn't make financial sense. I could just buy the Del Sol and use the additional $14k on gas, which at about 33mpg gets me quite a few miles. I don't mind paying a significant premium to do a conversion, because not only would it be really cool (I'm a techno-geek) but it shows more support for those companies trying to produce real BEVs. But that's a pretty high price tag to swallow.
Break even mileage, assuming that electricity is free (close but not quite) and only counting gas costs ($4/gallon) and not maintenance costs (which supposedly is cheaper on an electric motor than the Murano) is coming out to be about 85,000 miles.
Since I can only use it for commuting and not long trips, it's going to take many many many years to get up to 85k miles in my new converted Del Sol!
Someone give me good reasons to take the plunge. I really want to do it, just choking on the $17k price tag when I'm still stuck with a 12-year old vehicle (with a brand new electric engine, but still). |
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| Corin |
By the way, since someone is BOUND to mention the Aptera in this thread, I'll point out that they're still pushing off their timeline. They still haven't gotten a decent battery supplier, and they're still claiming to be able to make the entire carbon-fiber body for extremely cheaper than anyone else in the world can seem to produce. They're still claiming that their 120 mile range for the pure electric will only cost $27,000.
My prediction is that if they ever DO get into the production stage, that price will most likely jump up pretty quickly to 40-50k.
Oh, and they have NO plans to start selling outside of California at least for the first few years, which makes it a little difficult for me.
But, I must say, the specs they're trying to go for are exactly what I'm looking for (highway capable, way more than enough range, 2-seater plus a carseat in the back). |
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| njjoe |
quote:
Originally posted by Corin
Someone give me good reasons to take the plunge.
You only live once? :4:
And I am sure a younger techno-geek will offer you $10K to take it off your hands in a few years when gas is over $5 a gallon.
-njjoe |
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| Corin |
quote:
Originally posted by njjoe
You only live once? :4:
And I am sure a younger techno-geek will offer you $10K to take it off your hands in a few years when gas is over $5 a gallon.
-njjoe
Not if the newer cars are out for that price range after the battery technology catches up... :) |
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| Kris |
DETROIT -- General Motors isn't likely to turn a profit on its first-generation Chevrolet Volt.
"Most of our Gen 1 technologies, I don't know that I've ever seen a situation where we make money, particularly when you load all the costs in," GM COO Fritz Henderson said today. "So I don't necessarily think this is going to be the exception."
Henderson spoke after GM revealed the production design for the Volt at its 100th anniversary celebration here. The Volt is a plug-in electric car that GM is developing for sale starting in November 2010.
Despite the high costs of the project, GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said he hasn't given up on the possibility of first-generation profits.
"We've made very, very conservative assumptions on battery warranty," Lutz said. "And that huge lump of battery warranty in the cost calculation helps diminish the profitability."
Lutz wouldn't provide specifics but said GM is assuming it will have to replace "quite a few" batteries. If battery reliability and life proves to be better than assumptions, GM can relax "some of that scary warranty provision," giving the Volt a shot at earlier profitability, he said.
GM is testing about 10 vehicles with parts intended for the production Volt, Lutz said. But those vehicles don't have the production Volt shell that GM displayed today. The test cars are being built on GM's global compact front-wheel-drive architecture, which will underpin the Volt and the coming Chevrolet Cruze compact.
A GM spokesman said 33 of those test Volts will be produced this year.
In 2009, GM will build about 100 Volts with the production body, Lutz said. They'll be used for internal test fleets and media drives.
In related news, GM plans to offer the Volt in China in 2011. China will be one of the first markets to offer the vehicle outside the United States, where it is scheduled to go on sale in 2010.
GM China made the announcement at a press event in Shanghai to celebrate the automaker's 100th anniversary.
The Volt operates as an electric vehicle with a driving range of 40 miles (64 kilometers). If the driver needs to go farther, a small gasoline engine recharges the battery. The onboard battery can be recharged with household electric current, reducing gasoline consumption.
So, only 40 miles. I commute 36 everyday....not good enough for me....I woul dneed range 60 miles. And this would be |
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| Corin |
quote:
Originally posted by Kris
So, only 40 miles. I commute 36 everyday....not good enough for me....I would need range 60 miles.
Don't forget that most places you park will allow you to plug in your electric car. At least for now they most likely will let you do it for free. So 40 miles should be able to get you ONE way, and charge it up all day you'd have another 40 miles back. |
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| hfelknor |
And remember, if the charge gets low........the Volt is a SERIAL hybrid. That is, it has a small gasoline engine (1 Liter, 3 cyl?).......that is used to recharge the batteries on longer trips.
The car is ALWAYS propelled bythe electric Motor.
Supposedly you can go 300/400 miles without adding gas.
I believe that the gas tank is "about" 5 gallons.......GM hasn't said.......
Homer |
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| Kris |
quote:
Originally posted by Corin
Don't forget that most places you park will allow you to plug in your electric car. At least for now they most likely will let you do it for free. So 40 miles should be able to get you ONE way, and charge it up all day you'd have another 40 miles back.
Corin,
36 miles was a return trip. So without charging I should be OK.
Let's wait and see.
Interesting though that China will be next. |
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| Eric L. |
Latest I've read in various automotive blogs is that the gas tank will be about 8 gallons. It will be interesting whether the popularity of serial hybrid electric vehicles will lead an infrastructure of charging ports at parking spaces.
I think the Volt will serve its function for GM - to put it on the map as a leader in hybrid/alternative energy. Ok I know GM is already a "leader" in this, but the public doesn't know it. The Volt is a halo vehicle which will serve this PR purpose. I also know GM has invested a ton of money on both this and also hydrogen powertrains, but as yet, have not been able to bring it to market with any economic viability. In the beginning Toyota was selling the Prius for a tremendous loss as well, but I think with economies of scale, they might even be turning a profit on it now. One hopes this will also be the case for vehicles such as the Volt, but knowing Toyota, they'll come out with a Camry with a similar powertrain one year after the Volt and blow it out of the water. |
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| Corin |
quote:
Originally posted by Eric L. It will be interesting whether the popularity of serial hybrid electric vehicles will lead an infrastructure of charging ports at parking spaces.
Yes, will definitely be interesting to see what infrastructure develops. I've heard several ideas, like coin-operated charging ports in parking lots, "fuel" stations that will simply swap out batteries in a matter of a couple minutes if you're a member (i.e. you're renting batteries from the service chain), even small gas generators you can rent for long trips that mount in your trunk or on your roof or on a very small tow-behind trailer.
quote:
In the beginning Toyota was selling the Prius for a tremendous loss as well, but I think with economies of scale, they might even be turning a profit on it now.
Last I heard, they were DEFINITELY making a profit. Not a lot per car, mind you, but yes making a profit and enough to offset the earlier losses due to sale volume. That's why there was so much scoffing about the Prius early on, because "it didn't make proper business sense". Once they started making money, the other companies went "oops, we'd better get in the game". :) |
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| Eric L. |
quote:
Originally posted by Corin
Yes, will definitely be interesting to see what infrastructure develops. I've heard several ideas, like coin-operated charging ports in parking lots, "fuel" stations that will simply swap out batteries in a matter of a couple minutes if you're a member (i.e. you're renting batteries from the service chain), even small gas generators you can rent for long trips that mount in your trunk or on your roof or on a very small tow-behind trailer.
Last I heard, they were DEFINITELY making a profit. Not a lot per car, mind you, but yes making a profit and enough to offset the earlier losses due to sale volume. That's why there was so much scoffing about the Prius early on, because "it didn't make proper business sense". Once they started making money, the other companies went "oops, we'd better get in the game". :)
Exactly! The PR value that the Prius has brought in for Toyota was worth much more than any monetary loss from early sales. I feel this is the same for the upcoming Volt, but it remains to be seen whether they can make it profitable (even the Prius required 2 generations over almost 10 years to become profitable). |
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| Corin |
quote:
Originally posted by Eric L.
Exactly! The PR value that the Prius has brought in for Toyota was worth much more than any monetary loss from early sales. I feel this is the same for the upcoming Volt, but it remains to be seen whether they can make it profitable (even the Prius required 2 generations over almost 10 years to become profitable).
True, but another aspect to this is Toyota was pretty much the ONLY company coming out with the Prius-type vehicle (Sure, Honda had the Insight, but at about the same price for a 2-door 2-seater that didn't handle any better, it wasn't much of a competition).
The problem the Volt faces is that almost every other car company out there is trying to come out with a similar type of vehicle at the same time. The competition is already fierce, and the products aren't even out! They're going to have to make sure the Volt is priced perfectly, and has top notch quality far beyond the crap that GM has been producing in the last several years to compete with the foreign companies.
I can tell you without any hesitation at all that if Toyota (or Honda, or Infinity) has a vehicle out around the same time with similar stats and price as the Volt, I would buy from them and not GM purely based on quality history and how they stand behind their products (notice I listed Infinity, not Nissan).
I think Detroit has really let down the public in the past, and to recover that image and bring people back from the foreign markets (not only Japan but Germany and even Korea) is going to be VERY difficult for them.
It's incredibly exciting, and I really hope the Volt does everything they're saying it will, and I wish them all the success in the world for this vehicle, but I'm still very skeptical as to whether GM will deliver on their promises. |
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| Eric L. |
quote:
Originally posted by Corin
True, but another aspect to this is Toyota was pretty much the ONLY company coming out with the Prius-type vehicle (Sure, Honda had the Insight, but at about the same price for a 2-door 2-seater that didn't handle any better, it wasn't much of a competition).
The problem the Volt faces is that almost every other car company out there is trying to come out with a similar type of vehicle at the same time. The competition is already fierce, and the products aren't even out! They're going to have to make sure the Volt is priced perfectly, and has top notch quality far beyond the crap that GM has been producing in the last several years to compete with the foreign companies.
I can tell you without any hesitation at all that if Toyota (or Honda, or Infinity) has a vehicle out around the same time with similar stats and price as the Volt, I would buy from them and not GM purely based on quality history and how they stand behind their products (notice I listed Infinity, not Nissan).
I think Detroit has really let down the public in the past, and to recover that image and bring people back from the foreign markets (not only Japan but Germany and even Korea) is going to be VERY difficult for them.
It's incredibly exciting, and I really hope the Volt does everything they're saying it will, and I wish them all the success in the world for this vehicle, but I'm still very skeptical as to whether GM will deliver on their promises.
Yep like I wrote above, it is almost inconceivable that Toyota doesn't have a similar vehicle in the works. Because of the perception that has built up over the past decade on manufacturer reputation, it really won't matter if the Volt drives as well as a $40,000 luxury car (thats what it will be priced) - if Toyota comes out with an electric plug-in Camry, its pretty much game over. |
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| Corin |
Well, I just had to post back to this thread with my current plan (which seems to change on a daily basis lately).
I can't get over the fact that spending $17k still leaves me with a 12 year old car. So I'm seriously considering getting a 2008 Xebra from Zap:
http://www.zapworld.com/electric-ve...ars/xebra-sedan
Can't quite go on the freeway, but it's due to battery and motor power, NOT because of government regulations like the NEVs. It's rated as a motorcycle, so in the future I could upgrade the motor, wiring, and batteries and suddenly have a freeway-capable EV, potentially with significant range.
It's a weird-looking thing, but will do what I want and I can still take my kid to daycare in the morning (ethics of infant safety aside).
Also, the available colors are HORRIBLE. I think I'll have to go with the zebra stripes, because I just can't handle the other colors. Perhaps I can get a custom paint job? :rolleyes:
LET THE MOCKERY BEGIN!!!! I know you all have comments! :D |
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