| Sammer |
| My Murano has the upgraded stereo system with the 6 speakers and subwoofer and the highend sounds muffled to me. I have the treble up as high as it can go and I've backed down the bass too. I had a Bose system in my '95 Maxima that had the best sound I've ever experienced in a car. It had terrific clarity and crispness. The sound system in my Murano seems to be missing that. I'm thinking about either adding tweeters or replacing the speakers in the dash. Has anyone done this? |
|
|
| Sammer |
| Thanks for the information. I might look into having an installer do this for me. |
|
|
| turbodog |
You're welcome.
Note that in that example, the owner ended up with no "crossover" capacitor to block bass from the tweeters. As far as I know, his tweeters are surviving this and not distorting due to the bass. If you choose a different tweeter or listen to more 'bass-heavy' music you may not be so lucky. Safest route is to include a capacitor, but adjust the value to suit your preferences.
For example, if your new tweeter is 8 ohm nominal impedance, a 40 uF cap will result in a 500 Hz cutoff. High enough to protect the tweeter, but certainly low enough not to sound 'muffled'.
If tweeter is 4 ohms, then 80 uF cap gives 500 Hz cutoff, etc. |
|
|
| imhoff1 |
I'm the guy from FreshAlloy. I don't read or post every day anymore, it's my busy season.
My replacement tweeters (Infinity Kappas) are still working and sounding fine, no problems at all. This is six months after installation. I listen to SAT radio which provides an excellent source signal.
My replacement approach is simple and fairly quick. It is for people that NOTICE that there is no sound coming from their so-called Bose premium system's tweeters on the dash. If you haven't noticed then you're probably OK with the stock system.
I originally went to my local expert commercial installers who said that you can't replace speakers in a Bose system. We found out that this is total Rubbish. You don't need to match Ohm rating to Ohm rating. The key is to get speakers that are Efficient.
I did not reinstall the capacitor that was there, for various reasons, and this WORKS. But I did not install new amplifiers, new base boom boom units. All I did was replace the woofers in the door and the tweeters on the dash. It's good enough for me.
Replacing the tweeters was an improvement of 90%. Replacing the door units was an additional 10% |
|
|
| imhoff1 |
If anyone installs a new capacitor of the correct value, along with a new tweeter, I would be interested in how it sounds.
For those owners that are happy with the Bose system as is, try this: Crank up your treble to the max. You will now probably hear sound coming from the top of dashboard (approx. ear level). Now turn the treble back down to neutral. Did the speakers on the dash go away?
Most owners have gotten used to the sound emanating from foot level and probably listen to AM/FM radio or talk radio, and the Bose sound is sufficient. At least in my Explorer, the sound came from knee level. |
|
|
| Tyler_Canada |
| For truly high quality audio, you should not "hear" ANY of the speakers. There should be a full, clear sound of all the frequencies in the music, spread across a "stage" in front of you. |
|
|
| imhoff1 |
I totally agree with you. I only suggested turning up the treble to demonstrate that there really are tweeters on the dash, but they are making little contribution to the sound in the stock setup. After you prove that there really are tweeters there turn the treble back down.
So where should the tweeters be to reach the goal of a soundstage in front of you? They've got to be somewhat at ear level in front of you because the ear is sensitive to the origin of high frequencies. Low frequencies can be relatively anywhere, (except under an 1/8" thick rubber mat and carpet, inside the spare tire!). So the placement is ok, but their contribution to the overall sound is lacking.
At home I have two 6 ft line source ribbon speakers that disappear (audibly). You can walk around the room stand up or sit down and the sound remains clear and lifelike.
Its hard to achieve this in a car, but fixing the tweeters on the dash is the first, easiest and most important step. |
|
|
| Tyler_Canada |
There are two setups for tweeter placement that I see most often.
The first is (like the OEs) on the dash, reflecting off of the windshield. It has been commented by someone that this may place the tweeters out of phase with the rest of the system, drastically diminishing the volume from them.
The other setup I see is high up on the door (and was how the pros set up my Jeep) or on the A piller, angled appropriately towards the front seating positions. |
|
|
| Dookie |
| The optimum set-up for tweeter/midrange (component) set-up is on the kick panels angled up. This provided almost equal distances from the listener's ear and sounds the best. I put some kick panels with the older style Infinity Kappas in my '00 Accord and it made an absolute night/day difference. |
|
|
| larry1960 |
quote:
Originally posted by Sammer
My Murano has the upgraded stereo system with the 6 speakers and subwoofer and the highend sounds muffled to me. I have the treble up as high as it can go and I've backed down the bass too. I had a Bose system in my '95 Maxima that had the best sound I've ever experienced in a car. It had terrific clarity and crispness. The sound system in my Murano seems to be missing that. I'm thinking about either adding tweeters or replacing the speakers in the dash. Has anyone done this?
How do the front grills come off ?/Thank you for your reply :confused: |
|
|
| Snow MO |
| I believe that they pop off and are held in place by clips. The more I take apart the MO it reminds me of the SNAP TITE models that I had when I was a kid. |
|
|
| gseepes |
'How do the front grills come off ?/Thank you for your reply '
I just did this last week. It is easier it you pop off the air vent covers directly under them first. They come off very easily by just giving a pull down from the top. They don't have to come all the way off, just so they are out of the way.
The covers for the tweeters are held on with clips. Easy to release them with a little force (I used a large flat head screwdriver to help). Those covers have an air tube attached to them, so once you have the clips released, you have to pull them up and towards the rear of the car, not just up.
I hope that helps.
Glenn |
|
|
| gseepes |
One other thing.
The tweeters. Mine ('04) where secured to their bracket with some glue (around the screw head). I had to scrape it away, then I was able to unscrew them. When I tried to unplug them from the wires, I couldn't get the plug out of the connector. I ended up just cutting the wires.
Glenn |
|
|
| GripperDon |
| What tweeter did you replace them with did they fit, can you still use the bose amp? If this is already in a thread please excuse, I'll search. GRIP :D |
|
|
| gseepes |
| I installed MB Quart RCE 216 components. 3/4 inch tweeters fit the bracket. JL Audio 300/4 amp, running the front 2 speakers and 1 JL Audio 12w3 sub in the back. I disconnected and removed the stock sub, so the stock amp is only powering the rear stock speakers. Added Sirius on Sunday, and it sounds great. |
|
|
| larry1960 |
quote:
Originally posted by GripperDon
What tweeter did you replace them with did they fit, can you still use the bose amp? If this is already in a thread please excuse, I'll search. GRIP :D
the system sounds much better |
|
|
| larry1960 |
quote:
Originally posted by imhoff1
If anyone installs a new capacitor of the correct value, along with a new tweeter, I would be interested in how it sounds.
For those owners that are happy with the Bose system as is, try this: Crank up your treble to the max. You will now probably hear sound coming from the top of dashboard (approx. ear level). Now turn the treble back down to neutral. Did the speakers on the dash go away?
Most owners have gotten used to the sound emanating from foot level and probably listen to AM/FM radio or talk radio, and the Bose sound is sufficient. At least in my Explorer, the sound came from knee level.
used a 4.2 mf and what a sound, now coming out of the dash before it was like having no tweeter the tweeters were rockford fosgate a ok brand I also like pioneer |
|
|
| GripperDon |
| What is the price range on the Rockford Fosgate Tweeters, please. |
|
|
| folgersoldier |
sorry for being lazy but can some of the guys who replaced the tweeters be a little more detailed about what they replaced them with. I am interested in changing mine too but a part #/ source would be a big help.
As far as the capacitors go is this just something from radio shack or do I need to look elsewhere.
Thx,
Jason |
|
|
| jds |
What are the sizes of the Bose upgrade tweeters and woofers? Are they 1" and 6.5", respectively, matching the Kappas that the freshalloy post mentions?
I am assuming, of course, that the install goes much easier if the speaker sizes are the same as stock. :)
Having completed my PAC install this is the next cheapo upgrade I'm looking to perform. |
|
|
| GripperDon |
| Anybody replace the rear door speakers? |
|
|
| zelmosan |
30 Minute, $ 3.00, Bose Tweeter Fix.....
The Bose factory 1" tweeters are assembled with a factory 4.7 uf high pass capacitor. This capacitor value is too low making a higher cutoff frequency that just sucks!!
I added, in parallel, a 47 uf capacitor ( Radio Shack 272-1027 ) to each tweeter. Remove the grilles by pulling up to release the snap locks and then pull the assembly towards the front seats to remove the vent nipple that extends below the top deck into air distribution tube. Remove two mounting screws on the tweeter bracket and unplug the connector. The Radio Shack capacitor is electrolytic and the unmarked lead needs to be soldered to white wire at the tweeter terminal. The marked lead is soldered to the remaining existing capacitor terminal. ( If you cannot handle a soldering pencil, find a friend that can ). There is no need to remove the factory capacitor. Capacitors in parallel are additive capacitance. Be sure not to short any electrical leads of the existing capacitor or the new capacitor. Replace the tweeter assembly and grilles.
The added capacitance lowers the high pass to about 1,500 Hz. It is a remarkable improvement in the factory 'mud' sound. When I can afford to I will probably replace the tweeters as other loyal Murano owners have done.
Rock on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|
|
| GripperDon |
| Just called the Grippee to pick up a pair while she is out! Thanks GRIP :D |
|
|
| NatasG |
| Hey Grip, did you try this mod out? How does it sound? Thanks for posting zelmosan! May have to head to radio shack this week... |
|
|
| GripperDon |
| Got the caps from radio Shack last light will get them on this week and let you know. Thanks for asking GRIP :D |
|
|
| Spin_Echo |
| Are any of you concerned with voiding the warranty by applying mods? |
|
|
| Spin_Echo |
| I am not an electronics pro, but how did you arrive at the add-on capacitor and roll-off frequency numbers (47 uF and 1500 Hz)? |
|
|
| hfelknor |
There are actually many formula and tips on the internet showing how to calculate the capacitor size for a particular crossover with a particular speaker.
In addition Radio Shack has some info somewhere out there on how to build a couple of nice little speaker cabinets with crossovers.
Here is a site that has a cute interactive graph part way down the page and a little below that another graph showing how speaker impedance affects the crossover frequency.
http://www.bcae1.com/passxovr.htm
The Bose speakers are no higher than 2 ohms impedance (Note impedance, not resistance)
Homer |
|
|
| Spin_Echo |
| I understand a bit better now. So what zelmosan did was simply ask the stock tweeter to handle more low-range frequencies? Should that really improve the treble performance? |
|
|
| hfelknor |
"So what zelmosan did was simply ask the stock tweeter to handle more low-range frequencies"
well sorta........
What he did was, starting at 1500 HZ (which is not a "low range" frequency Think of fingernails on a blackboard as being about the same frequency as 1500......tho that frequency coming out of a song thrushes mouth sounds a lot better!;) ) He has more of the load being carried by the tweeters.
This will move the sound stage up in front of you. Stereo will sound more like left and right.
The sound will be "clearer", more distinct.
And what he has done is the poor mans answer.
Even he admits that someday he will upgrade the tweeters.
I haven't heard the result.
I'm just trying to help out with the explanation.
I owned a consumer electronic shop many years ago. And I worked at Bell Labs, so I have done some of this stuff.
I would expect the "soundstage" to now bein front.
I would expect the sound to be clearer and more distinct.........and I would hope the sound is not too "hard" . I would hope that when somebody spoke the S's wouldn't be too sibilant.
It's a good trick and worth (IMO) experimenting with if you feel that the Bose system sounds "muddy".
Homer |
|
|
| Spin_Echo |
I'll wait for my stock tweeters to "break in" for a month or so and then test it thoroughly with a reference CD... If sound still needs improvement, I'll move on to the next step... I do have to admit that I expected more from a "Premium" Bose system.
BTW, fading it forward helps a bit. |
|
|
| GripperDon |
| Not worried, life is too short to be mean to the pussy cats or worry excessively. GRIP :D |
|
|
| Spin_Echo |
| Infinity Kappas are nice, but... Has anyone had good results with less expensive tweeters? There are a bunch out there that can be had for 20-30 bucks. |
|
|
| zelmosan |
Well, well, well...............................
I never thought there were so many loyal MO owners just as upset as I am with the Bose car audio system. For the longest time I have always thought Dr. Bose suffers from severe high end roll-off in his own hearing world. He is obsessed with producing high levels of low end sound in the smallest possible enclosure man can make. This may be o.k. for him but it's not o.k. for me!!!
If you do add, in parallel, the 47uf capacitor to the factory 4.7uf capacitor on the Bose tweeter, (51.7uf total), and do all the math, the high pass should be around 1500Hz at 2 ohms. The 4.7uf factory capacitor by itself is a high pass above 16,000Hz. Personally, my last hearing test showed my roll-off at about 12,000Hz. So what good is the factory capacitor to me?
My mod suits my desire to hear 'something' from the bow of the ship! The better than 6dB gain from this inexpensive mod makes a sound image improvement that will suit me until I decide to spend my gas money for new speaker components.
I am beginning to think that there is enough room under the top grilles for a high quality co-axial speaker in the 3 to 4 inch range that would make even a better dB gain in the mid to high range. I'll begin this research and post my results. Please be patient, I still need my gas money to commute to work!!!
Rock on!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|
|
| GripperDon |
| Now you are in my range please name some that will fit and work with the bose amp. Thanks GRIP :D |
|
|
| Spin_Echo |
Fit and work with the bose amp? You place a tall order GRIP:)
At any rate, from what I learned, alll you have to do is
1. Pick the same or slightly higher impedance tweeter if you are replacing the OEM one. (4 ohm seems ideal)
2. The sensitivity (important since the tweeter needs to be loud even at higher impedance) should be at least 90 dB (same as Kappa).
3. The max power output should be about 100 watt, and
4. The tweeter should include a passive cap crossover that is preferably below, in frequency, the factory one to bring more sound "up."
5. The speaker should fit into the dashboard and be able to be secured without rattle - and the grille should close.
Here are some links where you can find reasonably priced tweeters - but I am not sure how to determine if they will fir into the dash! Google rules:)
http://lib1.store.vip.sc5.yahoo.com...y/car-tweet.htm
This looks good: http://www.x10.com/electronics/allc...sen_JT1203.html
Pricegrabber search: http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_...1/sortby=priceA
One concern I have about the person who attached "cheap walmart speakers" in parallel to the OEMs is that he lowered the resistance of the circuit and this may burn out the amp. Making the impedance higher is ok, lowering it isn't. Right? |
|
|
| mgthe3 |
I think I can hear my tweeters....but I also know how bad the muddiness is about channel seperation---and I have a non-bose stock amp. I have a few radical techno tracks involving channel swapping instuments, to the beat. On my puter with an Audigy 2 ZS card and Klipsch speaker system, it sounds very crisp and you can hear pointedly the instuments channel swapping. In the Mo, it kinda wanders from channel to channel, but I think the uneducated (those who hadn't heard the track on a REAL sound system) wouldn't hear it.
I will also go the addition of the 47uf cap to see just how much channel seperation I do get. I will report my ear's findings.
Something else....as men go past 30, our ears loose sensitivity to high frequencies. In women it starts in the late 40's. Not sure why, but those are the facts. So what us guys over 40 might find brilliant and crisp, the younger folks, and women, may find screeching.
:) |
|
|
| Dalite |
I have been enjoying the thread, and agree that the stocK tweeters are somewhat lacking (to say the least).
On the subject of soundstage recreation, years ago omnisonics sold a device called an "imager' that could be connected inline with speaker systems to make them simulate the "image" of the position of the original instruments in the recording.
The imager was a favorite cheap trick of some audio retailers to make their speakers appear to be of higher quality; in their ability to produce an image.
A mobile version of this was also offered. I don't know if there are any still floating around......
Another cheap trick to add depth to the sound was to connect a single speaker wired to the positive speaker terminals of both channels.
This would cause the ground potential to "float" and make the speaker reproduce out of phase. It was very good for capturing background singers or "ambience" that hit the microphone out of phase .
I don't know if the Bose system would tolerate a connection across the hot terminals from the 2 stereo channels, or if it did, how long before damage (if ever)..
Years ago, we used to get headphone extension cables that had volume controls built in, and rewire them for the volume control(s) to vary the ground potential between the source andheadphones. Using this method, the effect could be "tuned" and it made a "poor man's vocal zapper". |
|
|
| Tyler_Canada |
| In regards to sound stage, I don't think the stock tweeter locations lend themselves to being all that great. I replaced the speakers in the Murano with ones that are way better than the ones in my Jeep, yet the sound stage was much better in my Jeep. The difference? The Murano has the tweeters mounted on the dash, pointed towards a curved window that reflects a lot of the sound towards the center of the vehicle. In my Jeep, the tweeters were place near the top of the front doors, near the A pillar. |
|
|
| GripperDon |
| Could you not tip the tweeter up on the insides a bit to cause the sound reflection to be less reflected toward the middle. It would only take about 10 degrees to have a 20 degree shift and that might do it.. GRIP :D |
|
|
| Spin_Echo |
| At the first glance, it seems that a 10 degree shift in speaker direction should result in a 10 degree shift of reflected sound... |
|
|
| Tyler_Canada |
I think he means 10 degrees angle on each tweeter would give 20 degrees more separation. I don't know how well this would work, but my tweeters are angleable (sp?) so I just might try it.
I think I'll try to angle them more toward the back of the vehicle too so there is less reflection off the windshield. |
|
|
| GripperDon |
Imagine that the sound from the tweeter hits the window at an angle of 45 degrees now. ie. it come in at 45 degrees away from "normal" .
Normal is the line that is perpendicular to the windows surface. If it came in at "normal" it would be bouncing back in exactly the direction it came from.
So, in my example the sound beam is reflected at the same angle from normal and goes back off the window at an angle equal to it's incoming angle or 45 degrees from normal. If you change that by tilting the tweeter 10 degrees the angle it is coming in at is reduced by ten degrees to 35 degrees incidence and is there fore reflected back at 35 degrees from normal.
In the first case the angle between the incoming and reflect wave is a total of 90 degrees and in the second 70 degrees. The rub is that the tweeter is not physically laterally moved to cause this decrease of 10 degrees incidence angle , but only tilted by 10 degree.
Therefor the effective movement of the reflected angle is a total of 20 degrees. Doing this to both sides will change the intersecting point of the reflected waves by a large number of degrees the actual number depending upon the distance between the tweeers ans the initial angle of intersection. But a 20 degree value is reasonable.
See very quick sketch below (made while I typed this). The sketch shows you the idea "not the detailed solution". (But you can make one your self that is accurate) It does serve to illustrate how much you can move the sound stage back toward (or away from you ) by a little tilt of the tweeters, give it a try. place some shims under the tweeter to move it's angle to the window around. If it works great, it not, not much lost. These are are not laser beams but point sources (well reasonably small sources) and may not work anywhere near like beams consisting of one ray. Best test is to use a single tone so to help you ears focuse and a high pitch that the tweeter will output. The windshield is the verticle line on the right and the two tweeters are locate one at top and one at bottom. By words say the skectck shows the relative movement from the window about right but it is shifted to one side due to quickness of skectch and angles not being equal. Be carefull on your test of this can happen in real.
Got to run to a appointment be back later. GRIP :D |
|
|
| NatasG |
| Just did the tweeter Cap mod and can definitely tell a difference, especially once you hear a womens voice (mens do not really go up high enough to tell). Should get me by until I feel like upgrading to aftermarket. |
|
|
| Spin_Echo |
When an incident source wave changes angle from 45 deg to normal to 35 deg to normal, the angle of the reflected wave will change from 45 deg to normal to 35 deg to normal. I don't see a 20 deg difference.
However, the perceived source will move to a greater extent than warranted by the change of angle alone, since the point of incidence will move on the reflective plane. |
|
|
| special-k |
quote:
Originally posted by Spin_Echo
When an incident source wave changes angle from 45 deg to normal to 35 deg to normal, the angle of the reflected wave will change from 45 deg to normal to 35 deg to normal. I don't see a 20 deg difference.
It's 20 degrees because you're doing it twice. |
|
|
| GripperDon |
You are correct about the movement of the primary along the relfective plane (as shown)
Regarding the angles, I actually am trying. Don't look at the angles I drew quickly, (1 minute bottom angle one drawn wrong both show reflection of bottom tweer at the same angle should be like the top one, as I said I had a meeting to go to) but please look at the principle. The total angle changes for each tweeter changes from 90 degrees, as used in the example (45 in and 45 out) to 70 degrees (35 in and 35 out) a change of 20 degrees. Not being smart ass, but I just can't explain it better or differently, sorry, I tried. As I said, try it, if you don't like it, OK nobody is drilling holes or doing anything permanent. GRIP :D Still smiling hope you are too! I really did try and explain. Maybe it is in our preciption of what the angles we are talking about are. Iif you think it's cra*** ignore it, please!
If it has some good in it, take that portion and use it if you want or not. :D |
|
|
| jds |
quote:
Originally posted by NatasG
Just did the tweeter Cap mod and can definitely tell a difference, especially once you hear a womens voice (mens do not really go up high enough to tell). Should get me by until I feel like upgrading to aftermarket.
Can you characterize the difference you hear? Are you glad you did the mod? Is there anything that sounds worse after having done it?
Thanks for any information you can provide. I suppose it's cheap and easy enough to remove should I not like it that I should probably just do it, but just looking for a little extra confirmation that it's a worthwhile mod. :) |
|
|
| GripperDon |
| a little 10 degree change could move the perceived center of the sound stage (as far as the tweeters are concerned) by a factor of 2. Again this is to give the perception not an exact number as the window is compound curved, the tweeters don't have a single sound "Ray" etc. etc. When I get time I WILL TRY IT TOO! and we can compare perceptions. As the Big guy in OZ said "just ignore that man behind the "Green Curtain" So ignore that stuff bleeding thru, Only piece of quadrille paper i could grab, has something on the other side. .GRIP :D |
|
|
| NatasG |
quote:
Originally posted by jds
Can you characterize the difference you hear? Are you glad you did the mod? Is there anything that sounds worse after having done it?
Thanks for any information you can provide. I suppose it's cheap and easy enough to remove should I not like it that I should probably just do it, but just looking for a little extra confirmation that it's a worthwhile mod. :)
Well, I only listened for a little bit at lunchtime and have not even took the MO on the road yet. Did a pretty bad job soldering but still sounds OK. Will update you more tomorrow... |
|
|
| MO Dale |
I stopped by Radio Shack last night and spent $2.53 on the 47uf capacitors. Pulled the tweeters. Did my second solder job ever (first with Cold Heat). Put 'em back and fired up the Bose.
Wow! Noticeable difference. Highs are much, much better. I can't tell you how many songs I've heard with the Bose system that just sounded Flat! This fix definitely lets you hear the tweeters. I was able to even it out by setting the fade one notch to the rear. But, I'm going to experiment with it. I did kinda like the more up front sound.
I definitely recommend this cheap and easy fix! I had been thinking of getting Infinity Kappas. But they're about $240 for the front 4 and $150 for the back doors. I may still replace the speakers, but it will now be much further down the road.
Thank you Zelmosan!
Here are some pics. (I hope they don't vanish this time.)
Factory Bose Tweeter with 4.7uf capacitor
New 47uf capacitor soldered in place.
Tweeter back in the dash.
 |
|
|
| GripperDon |
| Thanks for the Pictures and the comments. Very nice of you. I have had the Caps for 2 weeks and not yet time to do it. GRIP :D |
|
|
| hfelknor |
Seeing the picture triggered some old knowledge.
Note that the cap has NP written on it.
That means Non Polarized.
That is the correct type of electrolytic capacitor for AC crossovers.
So When you buy the 47 UF add ons, make sure you specify Non Polarized (or NP).
Polarized Electrolytics (Marked + and -) are used in DC circuits where you want to filter out any AC component. They are very much the more popular of the two types..
Homer |
|
|
| GripperDon |
| Absolutely great point. And very very important. Thanks for the reminder. GRIP :D |
|
|
| MO Dale |
quote:
Originally posted by hfelknor
So When you buy the 47 UF add ons, make sure you specify Non Polarized (or NP).
Homer
Hmmm. The package from Radio Shack says "35WVDC maximum." Nothing about polarization is mentioned.
Does this mean I'll die in a fire?! ;) |
|
|
| zelmosan |
Great Job.....MO Dale!!!!
Your installation pixs shows that you have made the mod correctly. I wouldn't worry about the voltage rating on the capacitor. (You have more of a chance of a MO fire by smoking a cigarette in the MO and then trying to find the factory ashtray!!!)
The original mod I made has been working just fine for several weeks now. I, too, now enjoy the "hidden" Bose sound that cannot be achieved without the tweeter mod. You can either spend the couple of bucks or go all out and spend a wad. The choice is yours.
Great job!!!!........please enjoy!!!!!
Rock on......... |
|
|
| MO Dale |
Well, I figured it was okay since there were no flames when I turned it on. :D
Zelmosan, thank you for double-checking my work. I did nearly connect it backward when I started to solder the first one. Yikes! Glad I caught that.
It's a great mod and one that I'm really enjoying! I feel like I should kneel and bow! ;) While I never was especially impressed by the system, I really noticed the flatness of the Bose after getting Sirius a couple months ago. Before that I mostly listed to NPR talk. Now, I can hardly wait for my daily commute so I can give it a real workout.
Definitely, the best thing about this mod is the cost and ease of installation. If it turns out someone ends up not liking it, just get out the wire cutters and snip away. Who hasn't thrown three bucks away on something in their life. Personally, when I had my '85 Jetta, I went through at least three sets of after-market speakers before finding something I really enjoyed. Good thing I kept that car for nine years.
Thanks again, Zelmosan! |
|
|
| MO Dale |
quote:
Originally posted by GripperDon
Thanks for the Pictures and the comments. Very nice of you. I have had the Caps for 2 weeks and not yet time to do it. GRIP :D
GRIP! I can't believe I got this mod done before you. But, I couldn't wait any longer. It's so easy, and unlike myself, I bet somebody that actually knows how to solder can even do it without removing the speakers. ;) |
|
|
| GripperDon |
| Don't ignore Homer comment about using only a non polarized CAP like the one that the factory uses. Electrolytic caps have one lead longer than the other ( you picture seems to show that) this mens that in one direction the cap will be a cap and in the other its a conductor.. This will screw up what you are wanting to do and possible interfere with the power flow from the amp. NOTE THE FACTORY INSTALLED CPS. just go back to Radio Shack and tell then you want non polarized caps. GRIP |
|
|
| GripperDon |
| I am so busy you can't believe it. Just today, A new Zoom HDTV install,Tivo programmed, Trimmed the trees in the rears yard, painted the lawn furniture, installed 10 more sq feet of B-Quire. Visited with MOpar, we both got the tinted tails today, Went and bought the Ferri (SP) Italian Air Horns, went to the open house of a new Restaurant, Got drunk and here I am home on the forum. I left out a bunch of stuff. GRIP :D. |
|
|
| Digital |
| I bought pair of Kenwood 200w tweeters. My question....should i use factory crossover or use two that came with pair of tweeters? |
|
|
| MO Dale |
Yes, one lead is longer than the other. So, you are saying the NP caps should have the same lead length. Correct? Then I will switch them out.
[edit] If the polarized are in correctly. Would they still not be okay?
Thanks for watching over me, Grip! I can diagnose and repair computers, but when you get down to the circuit board, I'm finished. :)
quote:
Originally posted by GripperDon
Don't ignore Homer comment about using only a non polarized CAP like the one that the factory uses. Electrolytic caps have one lead longer than the other ( you picture seems to show that) this mens that in one direction the cap will be a cap and in the other its a conductor.. This will screw up what you are wanting to do and possible interfere with the power flow from the amp. NOTE THE FACTORY INSTALLED CPS. just go back to Radio Shack and tell then you want non polarized caps. GRIP
|
|
|
| MOpar |
| It looks like the factory cap was left in place,true? Grips mod. of adding a second amp for the sub woofer helps improve the audio also. |
|
|
| Digital |
Anybody.....Grip?........jaak.....?
Everybody must be sleeping... |
|
|
| jaak |
Uh? Ow! Banged my head on steering wheel as I rolled over... Really have to stop sleeping in the Murano.
Not knowing the values of either capacitor, I would say use the ones that came with the tweeters, as they will determine where the high pass cutoff frequency will be.
There should be markings giving a value in uF and Volts, so it would be good to know what the OEM and the supplied caps show.
If the OEM is a smaller value, it will make your high pass frequency higher, if it's lower, then lower.
Use the supplied ones, see what they sound like. Depending on the outcome, there's some tricks that can be applied. |
|
|
| Digital |
JAAK
where is the crossover for factory tweeters located....reason i ask....i never had orignal tweeters...they were stolen before i got my MO.....let me know...im running out of time.....its sunday....i have lot of pics to take and install tweets |
|
|
| GripperDon |
The non polirized 4.7 is the OEM factory Cap and IT IS the Crossover. Adding the 47 lowers the crossover point and gives more total sound range out of the tweeters. GRIP :D
HOWEVER the added caps should be Non polorized like the factory ones. |
|
|
| Digital |
| So if I dont have factory tweeters......I need to add two crossover boxes that came with new tweeters......I dont understand hwo that would work.... |
|
|
| Spin_Echo |
Having been thinking of doing a capacitor mod, I came across the following website that explains the basic electronics pretty well:
http://www.mtx.com/caraudio/education/electronics.cfm
Below is an exerpt on capacitors:
Capacitors
A capacitor is a device that resists change in voltage. It stores a charge. For our uses it will pass AC but not DC (while it is charging it will pass DC). Their value is expressed in Farads (or more commonly in microfarads). They have a working voltage (called DCWV) that must never be exceeded. They can be found in both polarized and nonpolarized versions. The most commonly used types are the electrolytic, mylar and poly (polypropylene, polystyrene, polyester). They are used primarily for filtration (in power supplies), noise suppression, and speaker crossovers.
For noise suppression, a capacitor is placed between the alternator, or component power lead, and ground. This will present an open circuit to the 12 volts DC once the cap is charged, but will provide a short circuit for the small AC “ripple”. Polarized electrolytics are most commonly used. They are much cheaper than the other types, especially in larger values. A minimum of 25 DCWV is needed for safe operation in a 12 volt system.
Another use for the capacitor is in speaker crossovers. Although they pass AC, their impedance is inversely proportional with frequency. Placed in series with a speaker, it forms a 6dB / octave high-pass filter. A nonpolarized capacitor must be used.
Electrolytic caps are the cheapest for their size. If using electrolytics for crossovers be sure that the DCWV is at least 100 volts for amplified systems. Using a cap with too small of a working voltage will usually cause the cap to explode. Mylar caps are a bit more expensive than electrolytics of the same value, but offer higher reliability and sonic improvement. Metalized film poly caps are very expensive, but offer the highest sonic quality in critical listening applications.
Total capacitance can be calculated from individual capacitances in parallel by adding each of the individual capacitances. The formula is below:
CT = C1 + C2 + C3 ... + Cn
Where CT is the total capacitance, C1 through Cn are the individual capacitances in parallel.
Total capacitance can be calculated from individual capacitances in series by the following formula.
1/CT = 1/C1 + 1/C2 + 1/C3 ...+ 1/Cn
Note: Capacitance and resistance formulas are just the opposite. Just remember to add resistances in series, and capacitances in parallel. |
|
|
| Digital |
| both side has two different colors....which is positive and which is neg? |
|
|
| Spin_Echo |
| So where can we get these nonpolarized caps? radio shack has electrolytic only..... |
|
|
| jaak |
quote:
Originally posted by Digital
both side has two different colors....which is positive and which is neg?
Depends on the package style... If you can take a picture, one of us can tell you.
Or describe it in detail.
Often there is a black band on end. Is it radial (both leads out the same end) or axial (one lead out each end)? |
|
|
| Digital |
| one side has a red band on one wire and black on other. otherside has green band and black maybe? |
|
|
| Digital |
| other side has green and white wire with both black band |
|
|
| zelmosan |
WOW! What electronic research!!!
As a former professional car audio installer, I can tell you that I have been using electrolytic capacitors in automobile tweeter crossover modifications for years without incident.
It is interesting that Bose Car Audio always seems to need modificaiton to increase the 'brilliance' of the sound. There are very few complaints for bass strength or loundness. Also, low Bose speaker impedance, 2 ohms, and low amplifier power, 20 watts, equals more 'sound' with a lower total vehicle weight and lower battery draw. A definite plus in winning the automobile manufacturer's supplier contracts. As consumer you are paying for a 'factory' sound. I used the 'tricks of the trade' to modify the sound without using additional expensive new tweeters.
If you do this inxepensive modification, using the Radio Shack capacitors, the capacitors should be installed as shown in MO Dale's pix with the unmarked lead to the white wire and the marked lead to the remaining factory capacitor lead. Both tweeters need to be wired EXACTLY the same. As Spin_Echo has discovered non-polarized capacitors are difficult to find. Most non-polarized capacitors in this value range are used in AC motor starting circuits and are quite large.
I now have over 100 hours of modified Bose tweeter time in my MO. No fires, no dash explosions. Just the sound that I like.
I only offer an alternative fix, that I have been doing successfully over many years, to loyal MO owners, in an open forum, to save our hard earned cash.
Rock on.............................. |
|
|
| jaak |
quote:
Originally posted by Digital
other side has green and white wire with both black band
Are these the wire colours or the capacitor description? |
|
|
| MO Dale |
Since I already took a leap of faith...I'm gonna stick it out for awhile with the caps from Radio Shack. It works! It sounds great! I am happy! (Now, I will jinx myself...) If something happens, then I'll deal with it. :D
Many thanks to everyone for all the research and information on the caps. It is greatly appreciated! Someday, when I feel like being gouged 8 bucks shipping for the NP caps from Electronics Parts Center, then I'll switch 'em. Don't get me wrong, $8.91 is still a great deal for better sound, but the work is done for now. I'm moving on to my heated mirror and seat project as soon as I give Uncle Sam my yearly donation. :p
Regardless of polarized or non-polarized caps, we still have Zelmosan to thank for coming up with a great and inexpensive mod for our often underwhelming Bose systems! I will always remember this, and until I decide to replace the speakers, Zelmosan will continue to have a place in my mod list.
Rock on... :cool: |
|
|
| Digital |
Okay....done installed it.....before I apraise bout it let clearfiy things...
I didnt get any cap with this tweeters....instead i got pair of crossoever box.....they have bunch of chips in there....one box for each tweeter. Tweeters are about 1" and 4 ohms.
Okay now the sound.....
It doesnt sound like tweeters.....it sound more like full front speakers......I have 2003 pathfinder with tweeters....and now way thay produce this kind of sound.......with thes tweeter you can literally hear loud and clear voices....and other speakers act like back ground orchestra.....
I'm more than satisfied with this tweeters....
I will post pics tommorow....i didnt get chance today because i had to make my own bracket since i didnt have factry tweeters......
Again Im very impressed with them.....
Jaak,
I found the colors frm service manual....i knew they were in there but i though you might knew it from top of your head.....anyways......driver side has light blue wire....one with red strip and another with black.....one with red is positve and black is negetive....pass side has one white and one green wire....white with black strip is positve and green with black is negetive.....installing this in reverse order produces almost no result....so make sure you have this right.... |
|
|
| GripperDon |
I think if you take the site I recommended and print the page and go to a TV repair or Auto radio installation store , you could pick them up locally. The cap are cheap where I suggeted as they are in most places. But nobody wnat to put them in an envelope and mail then and charge you a buck or so for doing it. It's the shipping that kills it.
Radio Shack does have 10Uf non polorized for a buck total of 10 for $10 would also do the job. So I suspect that you can look in your local yellow pages and find then for about $3 total. Let those fingers walk. GRIP :D |
|
|
| Spin_Echo |
... And would like to start again.
Does anyone know which soldering iron I should get? I'd prefer if it operated from 12V or batteries...
-Spin |
|
|
| Eric L. |
quote:
Originally posted by Spin_Echo
... And would like to start again.
Does anyone know which soldering iron I should get? I'd prefer if it operated from 12V or batteries...
-Spin
The Cold Heat solder iron is pretty neat. |
|
|
| hfelknor |
Just a couple of points.
Electrolytic and Non Palarized (NP) are not mutually exclusive.
Electrolytic has to do, not with polarity, but construction of the dielectric.
NPs are not big. At least the ones used for crossovers are not.
And they are not necessarily expensive.
Look at these at
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/psho...tnumber=027-354
Get out your phone books and look up a local Elecrtronic Parts house.
Most of them will sell you the caps, tho tey will probably charge you retail and tax (unless you have a tax stamp).
But there is no shipping charge.Stereo shops, TV shops, etc do not buy their parts at Radio Shack.
While you are there, ask the nice man to show you the soldering tools.
Homer |
|
|
| larry1960 |
I made a fiberglass box and removed the factory one .I will be installing it next week. I took the factory wheel and used that as my template.We used a 10' pioneer premere 4 inch deep sub. We will see next week. Bondo and resin with fiberglass sheets is what the box is made of.
:cool: |
|
|
| special-k |
quote:
Originally posted by larry1960
I made a fiberglass box and removed the factory one .I will be installing it next week. I took the factory wheel and used that as my template.We used a 10' pioneer premere 4 inch deep sub. We will see next week. Bondo and resin with fiberglass sheets is what the box is made of.
:cool:
Nice! This sounds like what I was planning on doing someday. I've never worked with fiberglass before, but numerous people have told me it's not that hard, but it is tedious. Once you're done, would you mind posting some instructions for how to work with the fiberglass and other materials for us n00bs? :) |
|
|
| GripperDon |
and was able to get the 50vdc 47uf caps locally and nice guy he is, got a pair for me. All that after making me a stone gard to match his. WHATAGUY!
GRIP :D |
|
|
| njmo |
I need a Mopar here in Jersey to share the Mo hobby with. You two guys got it going on!!!!
I had the caps in my hand at Radio Shack two days ago and I put them back because they did not hav NP printed on them. This appears to be a simple mod and it sounds like it is worth doing. What kind of place did Mopar get his from?
njmo |
|
|
| MOpar |
MOpar from Bloomfield.
njmo, the caps are made by NTE in Bloomfield, call them and find a distributor in your area, 973-748-5089 part number NPA47M50 for axial or NPR47M50 for radial caps. |
|
|
| jaak |
quote:
Originally posted by Digital
Jaak,
I found the colors frm service manual....i knew they were in there but i though you might knew it from top of your head.....anyways......driver side has light blue wire....one with red strip and another with black.....one with red is positve and black is negetive....pass side has one white and one green wire....white with black strip is positve and green with black is negetive.....installing this in reverse order produces almost no result....so make sure you have this right....
Ahh, so you're talking the speaker wiring not the cap colours...
Hopefully you've got it all sorted out. I've been pretty busy lately, so if the fine gentlemen here can't help you, PM me. Homer knows what he's talking about, so he's a good resource too. |
|
|
| Dalite |
I did the cap mod today, and the results were very noticible.
FWIW, I used 47uF - 25V electrolytics. 50 volt would have been better, but I didn't note any heating up or smoke in the torture test I put them through before buttoning up the dash.
The NP stands for non-polarized, but the electrolytics mounted with the negative lead to the white speaker wire worked fine.
I had considered using a double pole - double throw - center off toggle switch, with a 22uF on one side and a 47uF on the other. The switch would be wired to the location that the single additional cap goes to, and would give a choice of 22uF in parallel or 47uF in parallel. The center Off position would return it to stock.
If I went this way, I would use twisted pair wiring as short as possible. I have given some thought to mounting the switch at the top of the vent panel that faces the driver.
The plastic on the interior is so low grade that just brushing up against it with anything harder than a cotton ball causes it to scratch or discolor, so I haven't been gung-ho on removing any more pieces that necessary.
There is definately room for improvement on the interior fitment and quality. I have torn apart 60, 70 and 80 vintage Vettes that went together better than the MO, and they were the scourge of the industry for poor fitment.
Even the addition of AC and 4 speaker radios to Yugos at the port level produced a better quality finished product in comparison to the condition of the dash, speaker cover and vent piece I had to handle to modify the tweaters.
There is not much chance of doing anything un-noticable to this interior; a real pity, considering what the MO goes for......
So far, the only thing I have noticed that is softer and more prone to damage is the paint on the exterior. MIne is barely 6 weeks old, and the paint around the driver's door handle makes it look worse than many cars I have owned for over 5 years. |
|
|
| MOpar |
| Did the tweeter mod yesterday,great improvement, thanks again Zelmosan.Gave Grip his caps. yesterday also, the taillight tint looks real good,but he and I are concerned about the drop in intensity of the light comming thru. |
|
|
| njmo |
Searched for the non polarized caps and found these at Rat Shack.
http://tinyurl.com/6bu5n
Is this the ticket?
njmo |
|
|
| Kris |
Yes and no. This is the right typ. However you will need 22uF (microfarads). the one you showed is only 4.7uF.
I just installed 47uF electrolythic ones - I can hear great improvement. Now the sound is similar to FX. And it suppose to be the same systems. Go figure.... |
|
|
| rwm3100 |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dalite
[B]I did the cap mod today, and the results were very noticible.
FWIW, I used 47uF - 25V electrolytics. 50 volt would have been better, but I didn't note any heating up or smoke in the torture test I put them through before buttoning up the dash.
The NP stands for non-polarized, but the electrolytics mounted with the negative lead to the white speaker wire worked fine.
For those having a problem finding non-polarized caps, there is a way around this. A non-polarized cap is basically two back to back polarized caps in one case. Purchase two 100 uf / 25vdc caps, twist short amount of each of the + leads together and solder. Insulate the leads with shrink tubing or good quality electrical tape. Then solder the negative ends to the above mentioned terminals on the tweeter. Since the amount of capacity divides with caps connected in series, the back to back 100uf caps will have a total of 50uf, close enough for the intended purpose here. The working dc maximum voltage will double, so the rating for two back to back 25vdc caps will be 50vdc.
I added these to the tweeters in my Murano this weekend, and there is a very noticeable improvement in the sound. For my hearing though, the 47uf seems to allow just a tad too much of the mid range frequencies into the tweeter, but not enough to mess around any more with it. |
|
|
|
