| DocCat |
Having lived in Michigan for the past several years, I find myself feeling guilt over selecting the Murano as my next car. A lot of my friends were employed in the auto industry. I read in the newspapers how the "big three" are continually losing market share to Japan.
Unfortunately, no U.S. manufacturer makes a car such as the MO: attractively styled, powerful motor, smooth/quiet, reasonable price, good performance and size.
I believe in supporting my country, and I feel sad not to buy an American car.
Nevertheless, I will probably buy the MO when my current lease expires. (which, incidentally, is an un-American Acura TL) |
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| SIM |
| They now do build very good and not too expensive cars. Look at the Cadillac line... |
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| senza |
| DocCat - your guilt is misplaced, in my opinion. The North American auto makers ...do you think they feel guilty for not offering a product comparable to the MO.....probably not.... |
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| jaak |
How about your TV, DVD player, VCR, Surround sound system, PC, etc...
I feel bad for the industry as well, but I still don't feel it gives them the right to provide a lesser product for my hard earned cash.
The good side is lost sales is making them try harder. While there's still lots of junk, some of the product is getting very good. And there's hope in that! |
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| hfelknor |
MOST american cars have equal or better IQ, IMHO.
I like my Murano, but I won't lie about it.
5 flaws and 3 trips to the dealer and I am still waiting for my Alternator to go, and I know that while they will fix the "Pwr Steering drop out" for 05, they won't fix mine.
I think that the US cars are competitive. But they will have to stay that way for awhile to overcome past sins.
Homer |
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| SugarRushMurano |
quote:
Having lived in Michigan for the past several years, I find myself feeling guilt over selecting the Murano as my next car. A lot of my friends were employed in the auto industry. I read in the newspapers how the "big three" are continually losing market share to Japan.
Just wanna add someting here:
There is a big diference between chauvinism and patriotism.
You value your country and willing to protect its value (in this case freedom and equal rights for Americans ). But loving the country too much and becoming a fanatic in all the domestics products regradless of the quality is a bit too much.
I agree with Jaak, I will spend my hard earn cash on something that will provide best value for the bucks.
Japanese kamikaze pilot loves their country so much during ww2, they were willing to crash themselves to us navy carriers when their emperor just say so. That is chauvinism. |
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| Eric L. |
| I agree with Jaak and SugarRush - if I am going to buy something, I will try to get the best product for my money. In a free market economy, competition is what drives product innovation. As there is no domestic vehicle which can compete with the Murano, the choice was easy for me. |
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| simplesb |
| Isn't it truely hard to say these days if any vehicle is of any particular country? Aren't parts built in different parts of the world? Do they still have the sticker on new cars that show how much of the parts actually come from the US? |
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| Kris |
Interesting discussion………I wanted to buy an American car, however, after last experience with Ford, and hearing horror stories from GM cars owners………..I still wanted an American car. So off I went to different dealers………could not find what I wanted……..ended up with Murano. And added FX six months later. I like the design, handling, performance etc. And no, I do not feel guilt now. Look around – big corporation do not feel guilty when off-shoring American jobs. As long as they can increase the profit.
I work for a global company. They employ 440,000 people worldwide (150 countries) and approx. 80,000 in US alone. I do not think we can say anymore “American Made”. Unless it is a farm product or small family business. Everything got “globalized”. And as previous posters mentioned, components are made in different parts of country, world and are assembled somewhere else. If you buy a Honda or a Toyota (both made in the US), does it mean you are buying Japanese product? Or made in Japan? I do not think so. So let’s get what we need or like………….in the end these are our hard earned monies…….. |
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| GMTURBO43 |
I had the same arguement with myself. My father was/is a GM mechanic for my entire life. Every vehicle in my family has been American made - all GM. The first SUV we drove was the GMC Envoy. Why? Because it felt right. I felt an obligation to my perception of what is right. Look what message board I am posting on?
IF this is getting the best of you. I can't speak hard numbers - but it seems as though most American cars are built in Canada or Mexico. Now, are we talking American cars - or North American cars? How many Japanses manufacturers have assembly plants in the US? Toyota. Nissan. Who is employing more American auto workers - a Japanese plant here or an American plant in Mexico?
Where is the dealership located? I'd say this not only supports the American economy but also the local economy.
The Murano, in my eyes and many others here, feel the Murano is far superior to any thing in it's class - foriegn or domestic. I felt like a sellout when I had to explain why I wasn't interested in the great deal my dad's dealership buddy gave me. He saw why I liked it better after I let him drive it :) |
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| bsdx |
| I met someone who worked for Delphi (automotive industry) and is familiar with automotive business processes in the US and overseas. He believes that the US auto worker unions are too inflexible to match the newer generations of efficiency in use overseas. They are a few steps ahead of us and he thinks the auto unions are preventing us from catching up. Something to think about. |
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| seaofdunes |
| If Toyota can race in Nascar, why should you feel guilt for buying foreign? I don't think there is a more mainstream "american racing series" on the planet. As was said before, a free market system is what seperates America from many other countries. Enjoy it! |
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| GMTURBO43 |
Yeah - but it still pisses off the die-hard NASCAR fans. Plus, they are only doing the truck series.
Personally, I'd rather watch the trucks - but who am I to say. |
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| Frobozz |
My last car was a Chrysler PT Cruiser. American car, right? No, it was built in Mexico by a German-controlled company. I also once owned a Dodge Colt. American car? No, built by Mitsubishi in Japan.
Many Nissans, Toyotas, Hondas, etc. *are* American cars now -- at least, they're built here (the Murano isn't, though). You get into a slippery slope in a hurry in the modern economy when you start talking about traditional 'American' cars, which might be built in Canada or Mexico from parts supplied by a half-dozen countries.
Is a Saab a 'foreign' car? What about a Jaguar? Those companies are owned by GM and Ford, respectively. That slope keeps getting slipperier... |
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| Kris |
quote:
Originally posted by Frobozz
My last car was a Chrysler PT Cruiser. American car, right? No, it was built in Mexico by a German-controlled company. I also once owned a Dodge Colt. American car? No, built by Mitsubishi in Japan.
Many Nissans, Toyotas, Hondas, etc. *are* American cars now -- at least, they're built here (the Murano isn't, though). You get into a slippery slope in a hurry in the modern economy when you start talking about traditional 'American' cars, which might be built in Canada or Mexico from parts supplied by a half-dozen countries.
Is a Saab a 'foreign' car? What about a Jaguar? Those companies are owned by GM and Ford, respectively. That slope keeps getting slipperier...
Before FX my wife had a Sebring............Chrysler? I doubt it. The plate under the hood said: Made by Mitsubishi!!
You are right the slope is getting very slippery........... |
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| zebelkhan |
| I guess one way of saying "American Car" is to say "Built in Detroit". Are there any cars built in Detroit from start to finish by American workers anymore? |
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| Kris |
quote:
Originally posted by zebelkhan
I guess one way of saying "American Car" is to say "Built in Detroit". Are there any cars built in Detroit from start to finish by American workers anymore?
I seriously doubt it.... |
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| DocCat |
Sure many foregin car manufacturers are now owned by American companies. Saab is GM, Volvo and Jaguar are Ford, etc...
But the point of my post is that regardless of where the car was assembled (the vast majority of Honda and Toyota products, Subaru, Nissan are built in the U.S.) the profit goes to foreign companies. eg. although the Subaru was built in Lafayette Indiana, the profit goes to Fuji Heavy Industries in Japan. |
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| Kris |
quote:
Originally posted by DocCat
Sure many foregin car manufacturers are now owned by American companies. Saab is GM, Volvo and Jaguar are Ford, etc...
But the point of my post is that regardless of where the car was assembled (the vast majority of Honda and Toyota products, Subaru, Nissan are built in the U.S.) the profit goes to foreign companies. eg. although the Subaru was built in Lafayette Indiana, the profit goes to Fuji Heavy Industries in Japan.
Yes, but local economy benefits as well - jobs, taxes, local supliers. On the other hand if you buy "american owned company" car but built overseas - only the profit comes back here, and corporations are who benefit. what is better - it is a matter of where you seat on the ladder............ |
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| GMTURBO43 |
| I'd rather support an American worker in an American plant building a Japanese 'designed' car than a Mexican worker in an Mexican plant building an American 'designed' car. Not that I have a problem with Mexican workers - but I have a bit of a problem with American work going to another country. |
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| Eric L. |
Regardless of where the American car may be built, the issue here is not necessarily country of origin - its the idea that Americans should buy "American." We have a special case since the Murano is exclusively built in Japan, but Nissan also builds other American models outside of the US and Japan - for example the Sentra is built in Mexico. So I don't think the "American car built in Mexico" is necessarily the issue here.
I purchased my Murano because there is not a single domestic vehicle in this price range which offered the same amount of utility and performance when I purchased my vehicle in June of 2003. |
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| hfelknor |
We have a problem if we don't support it the way GMTURBO does.
To be perfectly blunt we know that a very high percentages of Americans are ideal for Factory work. Remember back to HS?
Remember Moose, and Bubba? Don't forget Carline.
The teachers really didn't worry about it before. Oh Yes, they tried to raise everybody up and (To use an Army saying) tried to get you to "be everything you could be", but there were many who just couldn't be much.
But that was alright. There was nothing wrong with working at the mill for 30 years, qualifying for a decent pension, which together with SS, gave the old guy a decent retirement.
But those days are fading away.
Now we really do have jobs for the Rocket Scientists, etc. Those people who develop and sell Intellectual properties are fully employed.
And that will work for that percentage of the HS population that can be all they can be.
But nothing has really happened to change those guys that could always get a job "down at the mill".
Except the mill closed.
So IMO we need to fight and kick and cheat if necessary, to keep as many of these manufacturing jobs as possible.
Moose, Bubba, and Carline may not be the brightest and the best, but they are good people.
I know that there has been a lot of political BS lately about "outsourcing".
But there has been no mention of "Insourcing".
Like GMTURBO I think these "American" Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans are GOOD things. In a way they are every bit as good if not better than those Canadian and Mexican Dodges. In the end, Dodge is a german company building Vans in Canada, Cruisers in Mexico, and employing sales guys here in the US.
While Nissan is also hiring sales guys, but they are also hiring Moose, Bubba and Carline.
Seems that Nissan is better for the US than Dodge is.
Homer |
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| wynand32 |
You're not being unpatriotic by buying a Japanese car. You're just being un-American-automaker. Remember that trade is the exchange of _goods_, not money. If you don't buy a Japanese car, then the Japanese can't buy an equivalent portion of American lumber or steel or services or whatever. Every dollar sent to Japan for the purchase of a Japanese good _must_ return to America for the purpose of purchasing an American good (ever try to spend a dollar in Japan without exchanging it for Yen first?)...
The trade balance is constantly in flux, and is influenced by many factors (such as exchange rates, the strength of the American economy relative to other economies which in turn influences the strength of the dollar vs. foreign currencies, etc.). Your buying or not buying products from a given country will not influence this balance one way or another, except to help artificially maintain an American company's subpar performance. If you want to do something about the trade imbalance (among other things), lobby for the return to an international gold standard in currency.
If we were talking about China, North Korea, Russia, various Middle Eastern countries, or other nations with whom we have very real strategic security issues, then I'd say one has an argument for not buying from them. But, Japan is a good ally and a peaceful country (if not just a tad socialist), makes some great products, and, I think, fully deserves our largely positive trading relationship. |
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| GMTURBO43 |
I had a nice lengthy message typed up at work - I'll paraphrase.
Big American companies are very concerned with being global companies. They could care less of the American worker. The major concern is saving a buck - as is the concern of most of us. The problem is what it does to the American economy. If you take thousands of jobs (regardless of the level) to a different country - you are putting thousands of American workers out. Couldn't a CEO do their job just as easily from Pakistan as they could Detroit?
So, with these people out of work - they are spending less money. They buy fewer small items that might seem unnecessary. They opt for a used car instead of a new car.
I also hear the debate about the laws the EPA has passed about plants in America. Makes sense. How about creating an American company that will develop manufacturing techniques that are less harmful to the environment. And why do we find it okay to go pollute some other country just so a freaking CEO can make an extra million dollar bonus for cost reduction?
Has out-sourcing done anything for the quality of American vehicles?
I'm damn proud to be an American. I feel just as much loyalty to America, if not more, than the next guy. Generations of my family have served this country. I would have LOVED to buy an American car.
But why encourage mediocre design?
Why support mediocre service?
Why support mediocre build quality?
Why support higher prices for a lesser product?
Why not buy the best product you can? Why not challenge the American designers to build something better?
So much for cliffnotes. |
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| senza |
| The auto making game is truly a global, confusing business. The focus of the management of the majority of these global operations is to benefit the shareholder by increasing share value, oftentimes at the expense of their own workers. You and I or our pension plans may benefit from the increase in share values, but when people we know lose their jobs as a result it's an unpleasant situation....if your politicians would quit arguing about who did what when in Viet Nam or Texas, and discuss more important issues such as jobs, the economy and trade, perhaps some of these problems could be resolved.... |
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| wynand32 |
This discussion is getting a bit off-topic. But, since outsourcing has come up: jobs are outsourced that someone somewhere else is willing to do for much less money than American workers (which must necessarily include any ancillary costs, such as shipping product to be assembled to the foreign location and then shipping it back for sale, as well as the significantly reduced productivity of these less expensive foreign workers). Those lower costs are then reflected either in lower costs to American consumers, or increased profit to the outsourcing company.
Now, if we as consumers spend less on the products we buy, then we have money left over to spend on other products. If a company makes higher profits, those go toward capital improvements or investments. In both cases, the money saved by outsourcing represents savings in the cost of production and money that can be directed toward more productive uses--and, that improves the American economy such that businesses are started and existing businesses expanded to absorb the workers who were laid off due to the outsourcing.
What those who oppose outsourcing are really saying is: it's a good idea to continue to produce goods more expensively, and to keep American workers doing work (by definition, work that does not benefit from the much higher productivity of American workers, which is most often highly tedious work) that others are willing to do more cheaply. In other words, they are maintaining that what's bad for the economy is somehow really what's good for the economy. And all this, in spite of the fact that the number of jobs "lost" to outsourcing has been demonstrated to be exceedingly low (something around 1% of total jobs "lost" in, say, the last 10 years or so) and that the (higher-paying) jobs gained through outsourcing are far more than the jobs "lost" through the practice.
Of course, you won't often hear this kind of discussion in the mainstream media. I'll leave it to everyone's imagination as to why... |
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| jimmymac |
quote:
Originally posted by SugarRushMurano
Japanese kamikaze pilot loves their country so much during ww2, they were willing to crash themselves to us navy carriers when their emperor just say so. That is chauvinism.
I always thought that was called "suicide"!!!:2: :2: |
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| bjagos |
From the Labor Department Bureau of Statistics:
Between 1983 and 2003 outsourcing went from 6.5 million jobs to about 10 million jobs.
Between 1983 and 2002 jobs in-sourcing -- jobs coming TO the United States -- went from 2.5 million to 6.5 million.
If you subtract the jobs coming to the United States every year from the jobs going out every year you come up with a "net" figure. The net outsourced jobs reached its peak in the early 1980's; a peak of about 4 million jobs. In other words, things were worse at the end of the Carter Administration then they are right now.
During this same period ... from '83 to '03 a total of 38 million jobs have been created by private businesses in the United States. No other industrialized country in the world has matched this number.
IMO, Outsourcing is not a problem. |
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| dklanecky1 |
That's pretty interesting about the "net" of jobs out-sourcing vs jobs in-sourcing.
I had no idea that the numbers were so comparable but it sure makes a lot of sense when you really think about it.
It'll be interesting to see if this topic comes up in the debates and how the candidates each spin to get their position reinforced. |
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| simplesb |
The funny thing is Nissan is 36.8% by the French, Daimler-Benz makes Mercedes-Benz, Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge, GM owns Saab all gives you an idea how global Nissan is along with all the other manufacturers. The thing we must all remember what the ultimate goal is of all these companies, its not to employ as many Americans they can, its not to provide as much jobs as they can for Americans. Its all about profit. The more profit a CEO can bring to the company the more the shareholders will get. The more profit shareholders can get the bigger the bonus a CEO can get. Realize the CEO salaries have gone up between 300-500%. US CEO are the highest paid in the world and that is not from giving jobs to Americans, it cost cutting in any way, like moving it outside of the US so they do not have to pay taxes.
Along that note I was reading in my Political Science book the following information, did you realize that the top 1% of the wealthy own 90% of everything? That the rich welcome recessions because that helps them not only buy out weaker competitors at lower prices but also know that it allows them to hire people for less because of the increase in workers due to buy outs and lay-offs. |
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| bjagos |
| So is it your opinion that the "Rich" are evil for being rich? Is it the government's responsibility to take money from the rich and distribute it to those who have made less productive decisions in their life? |
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| TopazM3 |
| Get over it... TL is made in Ohio |
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| simplesb |
| Aaah, now that goes into the fine line of politics and economics. Lets just say I have a big opinion in regards to those question and I am sure the forum could start this conversation in a more proper area :29: I am kind of curious of others political views too so maybe someone will take it from here? |
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| hfelknor |
" am kind of curious of others political views too so maybe someone will take it from here?"
Not as far as I am concerned.
This is a CAR forum.
If you can't handle that, then moveon dot, argh!
Yes, we can talk about economics with delving into politics.
Some of us are Viet Vets and will cut your ears off if you persist in talking politics.
:2:
Homer
Now let's get back to talking about Cars. |
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| GMTURBO43 |
| Oh hell - I was four months old when the last troops pulled out of Vietnam. :) |
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| hfelknor |
Lucky Bas*ard.
Do I envy your "yoot"?
Yep.
Homer :1: |
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| simplesb |
I just wanted to clarify when I made this statement "maybe someone will take it from here?" I meant that this conversation should be held else where then here, which I also thought i clarified by stating to "start this conversation in a more proper area ". In other words I was trying to go back to the subject at hand and get away from talking off subject. As far the statement of "Some of us are Viet Vets and will cut your ears off if you persist in talking politics" I have no idea what that was to imply :8:. I happen to be the son of a Veteran who served in Korea and Vietnam, two of his brothers served in WWII, and my brother currently is serving in Qatar.
Although this is a Car forum, I had always considered this as an area to exchange a variety of thoughts and ideas that often delve beyond the sole topic of Cars. :7: |
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| hfelknor |
Some people don't get:2:
and some people do get:2:
I can't help it of you don't get:2:
But it's my way of denoting something funny or a joke:2:
I'll try to be more plain in the future.
If you don't understand the mention of the ears, that's a current thing in the current campaign. But it's not important.
It was a :2:
That's why I put :2:
After it.
Homer
Although I don't think they want "politics" there, there IS a category for doing exactly what you are talking about. Been there a time or two myself.
It's called Off Topic. There are some good conversations there. |
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| simplesb |
| I noticed and it's cool, and got it :29:. I know how it can get when a discussion drifts from what was originally is about and was trying to avoid going off topic. As far as this whole campaign I can't wait until its all over :banghead: |
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| GMTURBO43 |
To get back on topic...
Buy whatever you want. In some form or another it supports the US. :) |
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| DocCat |
I'm 99% certain my next car will be the Murano. I've reached the following personal decisions:
There is not a vehicle like it offered in the Domestic Market.
I work too damned hard for my money to spend $30,000 on a "second choice". I work 5pm to 2am and 10pm to 6 am, weekends, nights, 5am-3 pm, you name it.
I don't see any other cars out there with the styling, great mechanicals, cargo room, AWD that this car offers.
Maybe the mass defections to foreign automakers will give Detroit the kick in the a$$ that it needs to start producing competitive cars. |
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| simplesb |
| I like some of the excuses I here from our automakers especially when our government tries to increase the minimum required gas mileage. They always state how it will take them such and such years to be able to meet those requitements. A good example are the hybrid cars. Look how long it is taking them to make those cars. |
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| Eric L. |
quote:
Originally posted by simplesb
I like some of the excuses I here from our automakers especially when our government tries to increase the minimum required gas mileage. They always state how it will take them such and such years to be able to meet those requitements. A good example are the hybrid cars. Look how long it is taking them to make those cars.
They could probably increase mileage in the short term but it would cost them in the pocketbook. The assembly lines are tooled to build the old gas guzzler engines, and it would probably cost the "big 3" (why do we call it that when Toyota is technically above DC, maybe even Ford) more in retooling costs than to just pay the taxes.
What is even more ridiculous is how the domestics build a pathetic underpowered vehicle and pawn it off as a truck to increase their truck CAFE numbers. One example is DC which classified the PT Cruiser as a light truck. And who really purchases a Ford Escape with a 4-cyl engine? These vehicles unfairly inflate CAFE numbers.
On the other hand, Subaru does the opposite! By raising the ride height of the Outback, Subaru has classified it as a light truck, so the relatively inefficient 3.0L F6 qualifies for truck CAFE. |
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| seaofdunes |
Heres a maze for you to follow...
Fuji Heavy Industries owns Subaru. GM owns 20% of Subaru. To bail out saab, they created the 92-x. It is a subaru impreza with a redesigned front end and tail lights and that is about it. Even the interior looks the same while some more luxurious materials are used in the saab.
So... A japanese car was redesigned by an american car company to be sold to americans as a swedish car that never once saw sweden?
Or take the chevy aveo, which is a rebadged korean car.
The Freightliner brand was created only because daimler didn;t think want big freight trucks carrying the luxurious mercedes mark on them.
The chrysler crossfire is a reworked mercededs SLK.
The mazda 3 shares its workings with the ford focus and volvlo S40.
Pontiac's vibe is no more than a toyota matrix (a reworked corolla)
Is the land rover freelander british? of course not! Its a ford escape. But hey i liked the "japanese" tribute the best out of all while test driving them... go figure
and yet we still worry over which country we're buying from? I guess i can see why we would. I don't have a clue who any car belongs to anymore. And even if i figure that one out, it then becomes a question of where it was assebled. and if i find that info, where were the parts sourced from? I mean subaru makes the STi with its biggest rival, mitsubishi producing the turbo that is housed in it's flagship designed to keep mitsubishi from selling its lancer evolution.
If i spent all of my time trying to buy only truly american products, i wouldn't have time for anyting else. Being that we import so much more than we export...
PS: If stock car racing or "stock series" in drag racing is called stock, can you name one thing on the car that is stock? They paint the stupid lights on the car! Why can i have a RWD celica racing a stock class with a Nitrous-fed turbocharged V8 under the hood? Or for you nascar buffs out there, a rear drive stock car with a V8 in a car that came front drive from the factory with a V6 and lights. To my knowledge none of the big three have ever produced the engine size used in the stock cars in a publicly sold car. sorry, know its not related, just been buggin me:) |
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| hfelknor |
"The Freightliner brand was created only because daimler didn;t think want big freight trucks carrying the luxurious mercedes mark on them."
No. The Freightliner brand was created some 40 years bfore MB bought them. MB bought them about 1980.
I drove Freightliners in the 60s.
But you are right about the twisted bloodlines.
That's fascinating about the Saab/Subaru
Homer |
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| darrylburke |
| Not even a second thought.. I've had sevaral North American cars (this is my first non-american) and If the looks and the quality/comfort keep up for Nissan.. I'll buy a second in a heart beat.. |
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| seaofdunes |
alot of the vans and such are sold elsewhere as mercedes, but here they are the same cars with the freightliner name one them. Just take a look at the lights on the big rigs; they scream mercedes. And i believe that while the brand wasn't created by mercedes, that is its purpose now that they bought them out.
Its kind of the opposite of the acura line here. In japan and europe, there is no acura, only honda. So in a twisted way, acura is an american car company. The same can be said about infiniti and nissan. |
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