| anbreau |
I hope someone can help with my issue.
I have a 2003 Murano and after 12,000 miles or so, I started to notice some pinging or knocking from the engine. Assuming bad gas, I started alternating between gas stations (Hess, Shell, Gate). Since owning the car, always filled with 93 octane no matter where I refilled the tank. Also, performed oil changes every 3,000 to 4,000 miles. Average driving speed 40 to 50mph with some stop and go.
Knocking was getting worse with time and only took place on acceleration.
1st. Dealer claims after two repair attempts that it was bad gas. In both instances, he reset the computer to "learning mode". On one occasion, he retarted the timing 2 degrees which seem to have helped for about a month.
Pinging returned and 1st Dealer claimed that they cannot do anything else.
Went to a 2nd Dealer who at least seem to make a better attempt at resolving the issue. On first visit, suggested carburator cleaning to clear out some carbon deposits. I was not convinced that this was the issue, nevertheless, I went with their recommendation at $90. Pinging got worse!
On my second visit today, Dealer and Nissan Tech Support report that I need the engine cleaned due to massive carbon buildup in the cylinders. I have seen the cylinders and they are black with carbon deposits inside. I was floored.
The car has just reached 19,000 miles and Nissan wants me to spend over $600 on a cleaning with possibly new spark plugs.
My biggest issue besides that this should be a warranty job is that they will clean the engine but they have not solved the problem. Am I going to get another $600 cleaning bill at my next 12,000 miles?
My suspicion is that there is something wrong with the computer or its sensors but I can't seem to convince them of the fact. There must be something wrong with the fuel-air mixture to cause this rapid buildup.
Note that we also have an '99 Accura TL that gets its gas from the same source and it does not have any issues.
Has anyone else out there experienced something similar with the Murano or does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks.
:confused: |
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| Stoker |
quote:
Originally posted by anbreau
I hope someone can help with my issue.
I have a 2003 Murano and after 12,000 miles or so, I started to notice some pinging or knocking from the engine. Assuming bad gas, I started alternating between gas stations (Hess, Shell, Gate). Since owning the car, always filled with 93 octane no matter where I refilled the tank. Also, performed oil changes every 3,000 to 4,000 miles. Average driving speed 40 to 50mph with some stop and go.
Knocking was getting worse with time and only took place on acceleration.
1st. Dealer claims after two repair attempts that it was bad gas. In both instances, he reset the computer to "learning mode". On one occasion, he retarted the timing 2 degrees which seem to have helped for about a month.
Pinging returned and 1st Dealer claimed that they cannot do anything else.
Went to a 2nd Dealer who at least seem to make a better attempt at resolving the issue. On first visit, suggested carburator cleaning to clear out some carbon deposits. I was not convinced that this was the issue, nevertheless, I went with their recommendation at $90. Pinging got worse!
On my second visit today, Dealer and Nissan Tech Support report that I need the engine cleaned due to massive carbon buildup in the cylinders. I have seen the cylinders and they are black with carbon deposits inside. I was floored.
The car has just reached 19,000 miles and Nissan wants me to spend over $600 on a cleaning with possibly new spark plugs.
My biggest issue besides that this should be a warranty job is that they will clean the engine but they have not solved the problem. Am I going to get another $600 cleaning bill at my next 12,000 miles?
My suspicion is that there is something wrong with the computer or its sensors but I can't seem to convince them of the fact. There must be something wrong with the fuel-air mixture to cause this rapid buildup.
Note that we also have an '99 Accura TL that gets its gas from the same source and it does not have any issues.
Has anyone else out there experienced something similar with the Murano or does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks.
:confused:
According to your note it sounds like you only drive in the city, I would highly recommend that you take it on the highway and allow the carbon to get blown out at highway speeds as all cars need this from time to time. You will probably notice that your fuel economy will improve to. I drive on the highway everyday and trade the Mo from wife at least once a week ( as long as I am a good boy), my trip to work is 75 Km roundtrip.
A special note to the dealership that recommends that you clean out your carburator, fuel injected cars do not have carburtors and anyone who says that they do needs to give their heads a shake.
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Take your Mo on a nice highway roundtrip of at least 100 miles and see if the pinging goes away. This should clean out the carbon in the cylinders and spark plugs. Let us know what happens.:29: |
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| anbreau |
Thanks for the suggestion.
I can't believe that I missed the carburetor vs fuel injection part. Now, I am not sure what they did in the first "cleaning". I will remind Nissan on this...
The Murano is now sitting at the Dealer and I am waiting on a call back from Nissan to see if they will accept it as a warranty issue. The Dealer doubts that they will follow through which will make me very disatisfied.
The driving is about 40% city (40mph with some stop and go) and 60% highway (+60mph). Our city is very spreadout. I am familiar with the high speed drive to blowout the muck which did not help in our case.
There are at least 2 other Muranos in our neighborhood with similar driving conditions and using the same gas stations without the issue. However, I am not sure on their total mileage yet.
My wife and I are now worried about driving the car any further because the pinging has gone so bad. I may be forced to go ahead and have the cleaning done just to drive the car again and then fight Nissan if they do not come through.
Thanks again. |
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| GripperDon |
anbreau!!!
You mentioned that the Pinging stopped when the dealer retarded the spark to -2 degrees and put it in the learning mode. It sounds like the spark timing is being mis-led by a bad knock detector that is not detecting Knock or if it is, it's not being able to get the computer to acknowledge it.
That s why it was OK for a while and then got bad again. It (the CPU) kept advancing the timing wait to hear the knock and never has.
The carbon is because the combustion is not complete and knocking can do that. You need ANOTHER PERSON TO DO YOUR ENGINE go to an infinity dealer, go somewhere but make it elsewhere. Bad knock can damage an engine Go After you talk to them on the phone, ask for the service manager and get him to listen to the situation and make a positive "I think I can Fix it" type comment before you go to them.
This needs to get fixed!! |
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| teonek |
| You are driving your MO to slow. You should take it for fast driving trip. You should make a lol of accelerations, and drive the fastest you can. Our engines likes high speeds and acceleration rather low speeds. For example make several hard accelerations form 30 mph to 70-80 mph or faster and then stay at that speed for few seconds. It should help. |
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| Trev |
This "cleaning the engine of carbon" is an expensive fishing expedition. They have no idea what is wrong with your vehicle. There are a lot of vehicles that never leave the city and haven't developed an engine ping at 12K.
This is a warranty issue IMHO. |
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| Eric L. |
Clearly a 40/60 city highway mix would not be the recipe for carbon buildup, so I don't buy the you need to drive your car harder argument in this case, although its true you do need to "open it up" every so often to blow the carbon away (how much difference this makes I have no idea, but the concept sounds ok).
Excess deposits in a modern car tend to be due to a computer issue rather than a fuel issue. My guess is that your computer is stuck in open loop mode due to a defective oxygen sensor or coolant temp sensor. A rich fuel mixture encourages carbon deposits.
I also like Grip's idea of a defective knock sensor. I know on older Nissans, a bad knock sensor does NOT turn on the check engine light, but it does store a code. Your dealer should be able to confirm this. If they did not check for codes, go to another dealer. Carbon cleaning on a 19,000 mile car is not acceptable and clearly the engine is not running efficiently.
If you make a lot of short trips in the city (where your coolant temp never gets to really heat up), then I can agree with the carbon deposit and not driving enough argument. |
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| anbreau |
Thank You All for the Replies!
Your answers so far have supported my theory that such levels of carbon deposits on such low mileage is not normal. Actually, both the mechanics and the service manager agree that this is an unusual situation but are "helpless" in convincing Nissan Corporate that this is a warranty issue.
It is up to me to do the convincing. A $600 bill to fix this issue is not in my budget at the moment especially that the root cause will not be corrected...
A couple of responses to your replies:
1) Did run a long distance highway trip before going back to the Dealer. The pinging was so bad, that this is what prompted us to return ASAP to the Dealer.
2) No error codes have ever been reported by the computer.
3) This is my second dealer. He is actually the one that sold us the vehicle. He at least seems to be making an effort to help. In our city, a very few powerful individuals (or families) own most of the dealerships. One actually owns the Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans, and I think the Infinities.
4) I submitted a few of your suggestions to the Service Manager indicating the sources as from very helpful Murano owners.
It is now in the hands of Nissan...I can't wait for tomorrow... |
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| mgthe3 |
Eric, I think, hit the nail on the head: it is overly rich, you should have horrible mileage. It should be detectable by smell and by any emissions testing place. If you had a slip from one of the emission testing places that had way nasty numbers, it might prompt Nissan to fix it.
Good luck! |
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| fd3s |
I think the Nissan dealer said carb body & really meant throttle body,
anyway I would hope they're that smart anyway. I think your problem started by using 91 octane gas & not driving the vehicle very aggressively. Octane is a measure of the resistance to preignition or detonation, which means it is actually harder to initiate combustion w/ a higher octane fuel. If you put a high octane fuel in a vehicle that does not require it, you will get a large carbon build up due to the lack of complete combustion & lower egt's.
I suggest taking it to a Nissan dealer that understands what a topend carbon cleaning is & then use lower octane gas (87 or 89 depending on the type of driving,climate,etc). Drive w/ the lowest octane gas you can while getting little to no knock. An occasional knock under heavy load is OK, but if it persists switch to the next higher octane.
My wife drive's her Mo pretty conservatively, so I take it out for shall we say an aggressive spin each week!:D |
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| Eric L. |
| Actually the Murano can use premium, as its the recommended fuel. ;) |
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| fd3s |
quote:
Originally posted by Eric L.
Actually the Murano can use premium, as its the recommended fuel. ;)
If you look closely at the label on the inside of the fuel filler door, it says for maximum performance premium fuel is recommended. If you're just driving at primarily low load conditions, the ECU uses little timing advance & low octane fuel will actually burn more completely. If you drive aggressively, i.e. high load % in the ECU table, it will advance the ignition until knock is detected & then & only then is premium fuel going to give you more power or maximum performance.
I have personally seen torn down low mileage engines with excessive carbon buildup on the tops of the pistons & valves due to the use of premium fuel in vehicles driven conservatively most of the time. |
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| anbreau |
I found out today from the Dealer that Nissan is refusing to honor their warranty for this issue.
3 calls to Nissan from my part as generated no action and their Warranty Specialist has yet to return my calls.
With my back to the wall, I have decided to have the engine cleaned as recommended and then proceed to file complaints straight to Nissan Executive. I may get lucky and get better response for the higher ups but I am not holding my breath.
Based on their behavior in assisting on a vehicle that is less than a year and a half old, we are contemplating on ridding ourselves of the Murano in favor of an Accura or Toyota which from our experience treat their customers better. I figure we will have about 12K miles (1 year) before the next carbon issue.
Sadly we like the vehicle but have completely lost faith in Nissan. God help us if we encounter any "complicated" issues with the engine or transmission!
I realize that no other cars out there are perfect but I do not recall ever getting such bad customer service from a company.
Thank you all again and take care. |
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| GripperDon |
Oh! "A a 2003 Murano and 12,000 miles. You have a case a lemon, what is the excuse for not honoring the warranty. You have an implicit fittnes of use claim.
What is thier stated reason for not fixing the engin, exactly what is thie statd reason.
This really makes me, sad, disappointed and mad all at once. How can I help, give me an adddres a phone number, something. I want to take action. Can you in a numbered list tell us what has happened.
First visits, problem statement, reaction etc. This is terrible. terrible terrible, Damn. :3: |
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| hfelknor |
"I have seen the cylinders and they are black with carbon deposits inside. I was floored."
How was this accomplished?
How did you "see" the cylinders?
Homer |
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| Eric L. |
What I fear in your case is that the same problem will cause the engine to get all carboned up again in another 20,000 miles. The dealership must find the cause of the problem, not just treat the symptoms!
If all else fails, perhaps you could take it to an independent Nissan specialist. Not a dealer, but an independent mechanic who specializes in Japanese cars (maybe even a place that does modifications to the import racers). Those shops tend to understand engine electronics very well and might be able to fix your problem if the dealer is too incompetent to do so. |
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| fd3s |
quote:
Originally posted by hfelknor
"I have seen the cylinders and they are black with carbon deposits inside. I was floored."
How was this accomplished?
How did you "see" the cylinders?
Homer
I don't know if you are referring to my post. But I said the engines
were torn down. I have also inspected engine bores,pistons, valves, etc by simply removing the sparkplugs & using an optical bore scope.
This is a fast, efficient way to verify a carbon build-up, scratched
cylinder wall,etc. I would demand that this be done before any attempt at denying your warranty is attempted. |
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| Trev |
I also wondered if they allowed Anbreau to view the piston crowns and valves with a scope. From the description of the way this vehicle was driven I do not believe this alleged carbon build up can exist without an underlying cause.
As Eric L suggested, take it to an independent mechanic, hopefully you can get a referral to someone that can be trusted.
Pertaining to fuel type, I had the misfortune of being in the country and having to completely fill my tank with regular 87 as this was all that was available. To say the performance was sluggish would be a gross understatement. It was laboring making simple passes, I do not consider this aggressive driving. Yes it will burn regular without pinging but I don't think this level of performance was the intent for this engine. Kinda like using a race horse to pull a plow.
I do agree with the comments about burning premium in vehicles designed for regular as both my motorbike and snowmobile will not idle and load up when using premium indicating poor combustion at low rpm. |
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| anbreau |
This is turning out to be quite an adventure...
The Dealer cleaned the engine (soaking overnight), replaced the spark plugs, re-cleaned the throttle body, and changed the oil.
The Mechanics, Service Director, and myself test drove the vehicle and did not note any more pinging. I left the Dealership with a reminder that they just resolved the symptom but have not cured the disease and I strongly suspect that I will be back at my next 10K miles.
Well, after 30 minutes of driving on the highway and coming to my first stop, the pinging returns. Basically back to what it was last May (Thank you Mr. Murphy).
It all started this way. Engine must be warm (9 minutes exactly), start from a dead stop, when the RPM reaches 1750 the engine pings for 1 to 2 seconds then drops to 1250 and pinging goes away. If I continue accelerating past 1750, there will not be any pinging, at least for now. With time (if I go with history), the pinging will get louder and last longer and eventually will occur on all acceleration regardless of RPM and speed.
I can do stop and goes like this continuously with the same result. The engine does not ping on neutral at 1750 (no stress I guess).
I use 93 octane from various reputable gas stations. The next lower grade available is 89.
Nissan continues to recommend that I use manufacturer recommended fuel. They will not give me an octane rating.
Dealer wants to re-clean the engine. I want external diagnoses of the CPU and Sensors. Dealer is considering replacing the anti-knock sensor but needs Nissan's approval.
Nissan's approach is no error code - no problems.
I am escalating to next management layer at Nissan and researching on lemon law.
I am starting to wonder if I am not going crazy but I swear that this car did not ping the first 9000 files. This is getting way too complicated and I am out $600...
(In answer to the last question: Looking inside the piston via the spark plug hole with a light, I could see complete black coverage with oily (at least wet) lumps of deposits (one looked like the size of a dime)). |
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| Eric L. |
At this point the dealer should individually test every relevant engine drivability sensor on your Murano which has anything to do with engine timing. At this point it could be anything from a knock sensor, crank angle sensor, camshaft position sensor, a fault in the variable valve timing, or a bad ECU. In fact since there is clearly something wrong with the engine, the ECU should be replaced in case the old one isn't detecting a bad sensor. This seems to be true in your case since the knocking you describe should throw a misfire trouble code.
A wild idea - knocking can occur in a very hot engine. Its possible your cooling system is not functioning properly - clogged cooling passages perhaps? |
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| Eric L. |
Grip, is there any evidence this carbon buildup is caused by lack of oil changes in this case? The old 4.0L V8 in the 96 RR is a far cry from the more advanced VQ.
I suppose its possible, but I've never heard of it on the VQ engines. I still think it might be the knock sensor as was suggested earlier in the thread, or one of the other sensors (or maybe the ECU itself). |
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| GripperDon |
An Oil leak due to bad head gasket might, and No codes to show it, Again try and go beyond the basics, I am trying to lead to thinking out of the box of standard definitions of problems and help the learning to diagnose problems. It's a teaching process not a specific diagnosis.
Pleaszeee Cut me some slack. :rolleyes: |
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| Dalite |
There is a test to check for exhaust gas presence in the radiator.
It may shed some light.
Less likely is an expansion/contracton problem with one of the sensor connector contacts that results in intermittent readings.
It took me 3 years to isolate this in a Jeep Cherokee I had.
Ambient heat in engine compartment caused one of the contacts in the CPS to give intermittent contact.
After having the ignition components replaced, head gasket, valve job, ect...it was finally isolated to this.
It is a wild shot, but...... |
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| GripperDon |
| GOOD thinking, however stay alert to a oil only leak into the combustion area, also unusual but lots of multi-path leaks possible. Air, exhaust, water, oil, and to various places. |
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| anbreau |
Hello everyone...Things are getting more interesting...
Had to do a lot of driving today with the vehicle. Not only is the car knocking and pinging...Its almost as bad as before the cleaning...I managed to do 10K miles in a day!!!!
Is it me or is this sounding old and deja vu?
On to the computer and sensors Nissan!!!!
And I don't want to hear a single word about "no return codes"!!!!
And I especially do not want to hear anything about "bad gas"!!!
And finally, be a man (or woman) and honor your warranty!!!
SORRY...I had to vent...Wish me luck for tomorrow. |
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| Kris |
Wish you luck!!
Ask them: if there was a problem with ECU, would you still be able to see codes?
Do not give up. There is a problem and it needs to be solved. Oh, and get the $600 back. It should have been done under warranty. they just fixed symptomps, not the cause. |
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| zebelkhan |
| I would start seeing a lawyer to push for the lemon law. This is ridicules. |
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| GripperDon |
zebelkhan You know I just can't pass up and opportunity for a Pun. Here goes.
Not only is it, "ridicules" but it is ridiculous as well. :2:
Back on point I think we have to stop this NO Codes NO Problem thing. Everything is not monitored, including the monitoring system is not redundant. Many have pointed out a number of potential causes that would not pop a code. Codes is just a way to eliminate good training of techs. All they have to do is read thir ConsultII gadget and look up what it says. All part of the dumming down of the country. It's a one phrase wonder. No Codes No Problem, Stupid. Should make all of us angry and start calling the service department BEFORE we have a problem and get the manager on hte horn and to establish a reliazation that wverything is not shown with a code, as evidently shown in this and other cases. rant, rant rant. ..... Broken wheel bearing No Codes, No brain No codes. :mad: |
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| Eric L. |
Grip I agree with you that no code does not mean no problems. However given that codes are meant to simplify diagnostics on a complex system, a noncode failure would probably be rather difficult to track down. When something like this happens, its probably best to take it to an independent shop that specializes in Japanese cars, and if possible Nissans.
When I lived in San Francisco, I took my Nissan to a Toyota specialist, who, while feeling insulted to work on a Nissan, was the best mechanic I've ever met. Problems with stumped the dealer (i.e. "no codes"), this guy would immediately know the solution from experience, not training. |
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| GripperDon |
WAY to go, If I am sick and the "Doctor" says "their is nothing wrong with you , your blood test are not showing any problem" I would go get another Doctor ( My Son) and find out what a well trained and experienced Doctor has to say, who knows better than try and bull**** me..
You are right, Go get an expert, as we know what we think of the Nissan Dealers "in Genral" always, thank God exceptions. |
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| anbreau |
I needed those replies from GripperDon especially for the stress that I have been under these past 2 days. I am a computer guy and hate it when people use them to replace common sense. Interestingly, I used a similar medical example in trying to convince Nissan that the issue logically lays with the computer and/or sensor.
ALL I AM AFRAID TO REPORT, TO NO AVAIL.
The Dealership is honoring the refund...But at a price...I can no longer return to them for service. Understandable and no hard feelings towards them. I will give them credit that they did try to resolve the issue.
Nissan, on the other hand, REFUSES to acknowledge that there is an issue and continues to quote "no error code - no problem" and that the issue is bad gas. These are the words directly from Nissan to the Dealer!
I am obligated to take the next logical step and I expect it to be quite challenging.
The sad part is that I just wanted our car repaired...
Thank you all for the support. |
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| GripperDon |
| Don't forget Eric's recommendation and mine GO TO AN EXPERT! and to H*** with an arrogant dealer that says "Don't come back here anymore" What I think they tried to do was stick you with an overpriced nothing of a "repair" not a fix. Keep Trying :) That what I have on my Cell Phone as a greeting when I open it up just to remind me, You Too! |
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| Trev |
I find this thread extremely frustrating and disappointing. I am glad this dealer is refunding you for work that never should have been performed in the first place.
Is this dealer that will not service your vehicle the one where you purchased your MO? Will they not do any service or just warranty work? Is this in writing?
I'm sure a qualified mechanic can sort this for you but why should you have to pay and let Nissan off the hook. Some manufacturers have district service managers or reps that have technical knowledge that meets or exceeds their mechanics. They also have the authority to approve claims from my experience. I don't know how Nissan is structured but it would be nice to discuss this with the individual that denied your claim.
Have you approached the dealership owner and pled your case? I hope things resolve better than this. |
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| anbreau |
The final discussion with the Dealer was over the phone. I gather from his words that his Supervisor is the one that indicated that I will not be welcomed back (again, a condition for the refund).
Yes, this is the Dealer that I purchased the MO.
I tried to contact the Owner of the Dealership and left a voice mail. It seems that he will not be back until Feb. 1.
I have managed to talk to only one Nissan Warranty Manager who continuously denied my claim as if reading from a script. "You have bad gas Sir", "You are not using recommended gas Sir", etc...
In my last call to Nissan, I requested an escalation to a higher manager. I have yet to hear from them. I can't even imagine them letting me talk to someone technical...
Thanks. |
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| anbreau |
Opps...I forgot to mention that in the USA, there are (or have been) 12 cases of engine knock/ping on Muranos. I am unclear exactly on the circumstances or results of these issues but the Dealer mentioned something about many were due to improper fuel usage (using 87 rather than premium).
Looks like Nissan is basing their decision on experience from other cases rather than treating mine individually. |
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| Trev |
12 cases out of thousands of vehicles should be treated individually. Does Nissan know that it is not caused by these carbon deposits now? Are you burning premium? Have you tried an octane boost additive? Sorry for all the questions, its starting to drive me crazy now.
Did they mention if they addressed the exhaust system, a partially plugged catalytic converter can also create this situation. I don't know if this would trigger a code. |
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| anbreau |
"No error code - No problem" is the standard response.
I can't get them to go pass the bad/improper gas theory no matter what I say or what I show to prove my point to look at something else.
I have been burning premium (93) since day one and before that in another vehicle. The last time I used regular was on a rental.
I am going to try one more tank full from a competely different gas station and reputable brand before I go to the next step...
Thank you for the suggestion on the octane booster but I refuse to add additives to my fillups as was suggested by one of the mechanics at the Dealership. It was suggested for each fillup...
I don't mean to drive anyone crazy...It should be entertaining by now :4:
In any case, I always welcome suggestions and brainstorm ideas... |
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| zebelkhan |
| Was this issue ever resolved? |
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| JeffC |
anbreau,
Pinging would usually trip a code. A rod knock, or a slightly collapsed piston skirt, or a few other nasty problems can sound a lot like pinging and would be less likely to trip a code. Since Nissan is being typical Nissan, it seems like you need to go to a better mechanic and eat the cost, or sell it soon.
JeffC |
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| anbreau |
Currently working with Nissan Arbitration on resolving issue. For the moment, I am getting better handling. I am actually delaying their final repair attempt since the pinging magically stopped about 2 weeks ago. On the previous attempt, another Dealer re-flashed the ECM and restored the self-learning mode. However, I have been through this before where the pinging gradually went away for a few weeks after the system was set to self-learning mode.
I want to make sure their expert technician will have something to look at when the time comes. |
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| GMTURBO43 |
Holy crap I figured this would have been fixed by now.
A few things I'd like to add.
Have they actually verified there is carbon build up or is this some BS shot in the dark?
A knock sensor will not cause a car to knock. It is there to retard timing in the event knock is present. Regardless of a functioning knock sensor - it should not knock at that low of an RPM. Or that extreme of a ping. |
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| anbreau |
I got my Murano back today.
Nissan had the vehicle for 1 week in their final attempt to repair the issue.
Too make a long story short, I called the Dealer last week to report that no oil was registering on the dip stick again. He requested that I drive the vehicle in to refill the car and mark the dipstick so that they can check for excessive oil burn. Well, on my way there, engine started to rattle and lose power...Eventually it calmed down and I made it to the Dealer...Dealer gave me a rental car and made arrangements with Nissan to take care of the arbitration issue immediately.
They discovered that all of the PCV (or PVC?) ports were all clogged with oil which would raised the pressure in the cylinders, which would cause excessive oil burn, which could result in carbon buildup, which could finally cause pinging.
Sounds possible to me. In anycase, both head covers and gaskets have been replaced and the Dealer has test driven the car.
I will be pushing to keep my claim open for awhile to monitor and make sure that the pinging issue does not return.
Does their diagnosis sound reasonable to you all?
Thanks. |
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| Stoker |
quote:
Originally posted by anbreau
I got my Murano back today.
Nissan had the vehicle for 1 week in their final attempt to repair the issue.
Too make a long story short, I called the Dealer last week to report that no oil was registering on the dip stick again. He requested that I drive the vehicle in to refill the car and mark the dipstick so that they can check for excessive oil burn. Well, on my way there, engine started to rattle and lose power...Eventually it calmed down and I made it to the Dealer...Dealer gave me a rental car and made arrangements with Nissan to take care of the arbitration issue immediately.
They discovered that all of the PCV (or PVC?) ports were all clogged with oil which would raised the pressure in the cylinders, which would cause excessive oil burn, which could result in carbon buildup, which could finally cause pinging.
Sounds possible to me. In anycase, both head covers and gaskets have been replaced and the Dealer has test driven the car.
I will be pushing to keep my claim open for awhile to monitor and make sure that the pinging issue does not return.
Does their diagnosis sound reasonable to you all?
Yes it does, if the Positive crankcase Valve (PCV) is not working it will allow the engine crankcase to over pressure and force oil back into the cylinders and everywhere else. It can also be detected by opening up slowly , your oil filler cap on the valve cover.
Hopefully this will be the cure for your engine and you will have many miles of trouble free driving
Thanks.
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| mgthe3 |
PCV Positive Crankcase Ventilation
It's good that they traced it back to the PCV valves......but why are THEY clogged?
PCV's should not clog, especially on low mileage cars.
They vent the gasses that get by your rings back to your induction system (intake). I would demand a cylinder compression check, somebody is leaking like a sieve. |
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| Gonzo |
| Where is the PCV in the MO? Perhaps something to look at and confirm the valve is working correctly. |
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| Eric L. |
quote:
Originally posted by anbreau
I got my Murano back today.
Nissan had the vehicle for 1 week in their final attempt to repair the issue.
Too make a long story short, I called the Dealer last week to report that no oil was registering on the dip stick again. He requested that I drive the vehicle in to refill the car and mark the dipstick so that they can check for excessive oil burn. Well, on my way there, engine started to rattle and lose power...Eventually it calmed down and I made it to the Dealer...Dealer gave me a rental car and made arrangements with Nissan to take care of the arbitration issue immediately.
They discovered that all of the PCV (or PVC?) ports were all clogged with oil which would raised the pressure in the cylinders, which would cause excessive oil burn, which could result in carbon buildup, which could finally cause pinging.
Sounds possible to me. In anycase, both head covers and gaskets have been replaced and the Dealer has test driven the car.
I will be pushing to keep my claim open for awhile to monitor and make sure that the pinging issue does not return.
Does their diagnosis sound reasonable to you all?
Thanks.
Conceivably a clogged PCV valve can raise cylinder pressures, but I can't imagine it would be enough to cause excessive oil burn, esp on a new car. Make sure your dealer DOCUMENTS this incident in case you have problems in the future! |
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| JeffC |
Eric,
I restored an old British car once and didn't properly vent the crankcase. I ended up with oil pushing past the front and rear main seals. After installing a proper vent that problem went away. If Anbreau's PCV was clogged and pressure was high enough to push vapor into the combustion chambers, wouldn't it also be very likely to push oil out of the main seals? I don't remember Anbreau mentioning oil all over his engine or driveway. Also, I thought that PCV's don't usually stick unless the engine is very old and there is a lot of blow-by and sludge built up.
It'll be interesting to see what really turns out to be the problem.
JeffC |
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| Eric L. |
| Maybe the PCV valve was just partially stuck. Yeah I agree, this is a very interesting problem. |
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| zebelkhan |
| That much oil getting into the cylinders and burning would cause smoke which cannot be easily missed. The PCV issue maybe a contributing factor but as the main problem I still side with the computer not doing its job to adjust for correct A/F mixture. Regrdless, as long as they are working on it. Meanwhile I suggest you check out the "lemon Law" and see if you can push them to just give you a new MO. |
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| GMTURBO43 |
I can't believe the dealer told you to drive the car when there wasn't any oil registering on the dipstick.
I'd say yes - the PCV system could cause all those things - BUT what caused the PCV Valves to get clogged? |
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| JeffC |
Anbreau
You have referred to "arbitration" a couple of times. Can you describe Nissan's arbitration process? When I was trying to get my driveline vibration fixed, neither my dealer nor Nissan Cust Svc ever mentioned an arbitration process.
Thanks.
JeffC |
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| anbreau |
Thank You All for the replies...
I was a little nervous about driving the car with low oil but the Dealer wanted to see it for himself and said it should be OK as long as the engine light does not come on (low oil pressure). It the rattling had not subsided, I would have made them tow it in or make a house call.
I doubt I stand a chance of asking for a new Murano since they are under the impression that the issue has been resolved. However, I will be pushing to keep my case open for at least 1 month to confirm the issue is gone. I am also going to see about extending my warranty at least 1 year just to be safe. It expires in June.
It is very difficult to get them to do anything that Nissan does not come up with first. The next 30 to 60 days are going to be crucial if anything else needs to be done.
As for arbitration, there should be a booklet that came with your vehicle explaining the process. It is the law in my state. You basically have to record 3 unsuccessful attempts by the Manufacturer in resolving your issue. Then you file a form with your State's Lemon Law Dept. and Nissan (registered mail). The Manufacturer has one last attempt at repairing the issue. If still unsuccessful, then you go to abritration to get a new vehicle, your money back, or some other type of resolution that has been negotiated. At least this is my understanding of the process.
The whole process is time consuming and frustrating at times but it seems to be the only way to get this Manufacturer to pay any attention to you.
Good Luck. |
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| JeffC |
Thanks,
I was hoping that "arbitration" was some kind of internal Nissan process rather than a Lemon Law process. |
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| anbreau |
This message is to bring everyone who helped up-to-date on the pinging Murano issue.
Recently, Nissan re-purchased our Murano as per the settlement reached during arbitration.
Nissan Representative admitted that the engine had some serious internal damage and needed to be replaced. As of my delivery of the vehicle, it was drinking over a quart of oil per week with minimal driving.
It is understandable that one can encounter a bad item from a Production line, however, my one and only major gripe is that Nissan knew of a defect with that first year model and failed to recognize (or ignore) the possibility that I was experience this known issue. To have direct Nissan Representatives accuse me of putting bad gas in the vehicle as the cause of my problems is inexcusable. Once again, the "Corporation" had to have its back against the wall before taking the right action.
In any case, no one in my familly will EVER touch another Nissan again.
Good luck with your Muranos and thank you again for the help. |
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