| Kris |
Within lat week or so I noticed a strange noise coming from the front pf the car. It is difficult to describe but it is like grinding, growling noise. The best I could describe it would be a “noisy gearbox”. Like noisy diff. The pitch (frequency) and amplitude changes with speed but it appears at approximately 35 mph and then increases. I can reproduce it as it is there all the time. It annoys me as I am sure it wasn’t there before. I took the car a dealer today. Predicting what may happen I took a day off. The dealer did not want me to wait and explain much nor to talk to mechanic….why? Strange. Anyway, within 1.5 hours mechanic came to me and asked if we could go for a test drive as he cannot see anything wrong with brakes! Then he gives me usual crap about brakes and tires. First he cannot hear anything, than decides he can but it is normal. So we get Manager – he can hear it right away and is sure it is not normal! They will work on this…..OK.
I get back later this afternoon and I can see the crappy plastic tank shields (on a $35k car, eh Mr. Goshn “there is no place for half-measures, no place for shortcuts and no substitute for great products”, didn’t you say it? What a BS!). I will definitely remove them. The dealer would do it but I did not have time….
The noise – it is normal! They said they put different tires – no change. Checked with a stethoscope – the noise is there but they do not know why or what causing it so it is normal. Apparently they drove a new 06 Murano and the noise was there! Told them it is new. The answer – you were lucky. I am unhappy. Wrote on the receipt that the problem is still there and has not been solved.
What shall I do? Call Nissan? I really do not have time to go from dealer to dealer. I guess the best would be if something really broke….Murano is almost 3 years old, 54Kmiles but I have Gold preferred warranty 5y/100k. |
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| Eric L. |
quote:
Originally posted by Kris
Within lat week or so I noticed a strange noise coming from the front pf the car. It is difficult to describe but it is like grinding, growling noise. The best I could describe it would be a “noisy gearbox”. Like noisy diff. The pitch (frequency) and amplitude changes with speed but it appears at approximately 35 mph and then increases. I can reproduce it as it is there all the time. It annoys me as I am sure it wasn’t there before. I took the car a dealer today. Predicting what may happen I took a day off. The dealer did not want me to wait and explain much nor to talk to mechanic….why? Strange. Anyway, within 1.5 hours mechanic came to me and asked if we could go for a test drive as he cannot see anything wrong with brakes! Then he gives me usual crap about brakes and tires. First he cannot hear anything, than decides he can but it is normal. So we get Manager – he can hear it right away and is sure it is not normal! They will work on this…..OK.
I get back later this afternoon and I can see the crappy plastic tank shields (on a $35k car, eh Mr. Goshn “there is no place for half-measures, no place for shortcuts and no substitute for great products”, didn’t you say it? What a BS!). I will definitely remove them. The dealer would do it but I did not have time….
The noise – it is normal! They said they put different tires – no change. Checked with a stethoscope – the noise is there but they do not know why or what causing it so it is normal. Apparently they drove a new 06 Murano and the noise was there! Told them it is new. The answer – you were lucky. I am unhappy. Wrote on the receipt that the problem is still there and has not been solved.
What shall I do? Call Nissan? I really do not have time to go from dealer to dealer. I guess the best would be if something really broke….Murano is almost 3 years old, 54Kmiles but I have Gold preferred warranty 5y/100k.
Well its no surprise the $tealer "factory trained technicians" are incompetent to diagnose the issue. Did you verify that their new MO also made the same noise? One of the worst experiences I had with the Nissan dealer was when the alternator on my Maxima was making a whining noise. They called it normal, and refused to let me listen to a new Maxima on the lot to confirm it was "normal." They did not repair anything (after keeping the car for the entire day) and I had decided to try another dealer the following day. That evening, my poor Max had its lights flicker, and charge light came on. Had it towed back to the same dealership (it was the closest one, the other one was 25 miles further) and they scratched their head and said they did not have an alternator in stock (at 8am in the morning). I asked if they could ship one from a nearby dealer, and they said no, and that if I wanted that option *I had to pay the other dealership for their alternator and same day shipping*. All for a warranty repair! I said no thanks, I'm just going to get the car towed to dealer #2 (that had the alternator). Second dealership replaced the alternator within an hour. Thank God for Triple A! The membership payed for itself many times over when factoring in about 30 miles worth of towing. Dealer #2 got a good survey. Dealer #1, well, they had the nerve to tell me (as the tow truck was hitching up the Max) that I *should have left the car with them overnight for more testing.* Uh, I left the car with them all day the day before, and they said the noise was normal and told me to drive it home. So clearly dealership experiences vary.
If your situation happened to me, and I was mad enough, I would probably just take it to an independent shop and have them fix it right the first time, paying out of my own pocket. |
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| MyBlueMO |
Kris,
Is the noise similar to how a turbo sounds as it winds up? The noise gets louder, higher pitch as you go faster, then lower pitch as you slow, ie a variable pitch with speed? If you are running say 50mph, and put the transmission into 'N', is the sound still there?
Also, are you experiencing any power hesitations, like you push the gas, and the car is sluggish to go, then goes after several seconds?
The reason I ask, is I had the exact same type of noise from the frontend of my 2003 Murano with 33,400 miles(started about 2 weeks ago), and started to have the power problems(past few days). I took it to my dealer this morning, and they informed me after diagnosing the problem, the entire Transmission is going to have to be replaced(under warranty thankfully). I thought it might have been the tires, as the original stock GY's were shot, but after I installed new Michelins the noise was still there(I needed the tires anyway).
From researching here, I originally thought it might be a problem with the transfer case, but it's all interconnected, so the dealer is shipping in a new Transmission to install.
If this is the same thing you are seeing, I would take it to another dealer if you can, and have them check it. My dealer said they have seen a few other Muranos in the area with this same problem.
Good luck!
Gene |
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| Kris |
MyBlueMO
thank for your comments.
No power hesitation. Performance is OK. Just the noise. Starting above 35mph and increasing in pitch and amplitude.....I think if I was to describe the noise it would be a "noisy gearbox". So the diff is suspect. At least in my opinion.
Contacted Nissan. They will try to get their technician to check it out. What p....s me off was the Service Mgr comment that "I was lucky" if I did not have it before as it is "normal"......I guess my and theirs definition of "normal" differs a lot.....
To add to the injury now I have the b......d plastic gas tank shield....I will definitely remove it and design my own. I simply cannot belive it that somebody was stuipd enpough to put something like that on $35k+ vehicle. This guy deserves an award! For stupidity! |
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| Enforcer |
| I hear ya. That is just plain not right. It is possible we will eventually break the code on getting the aluminum fuel shields. But I really don't think we will ever break the code on inept dealer service departments. Kris, did you try a mechanics stethoscope yourself yet? |
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| Kris |
No I did not. It would be rather difficult to listen to a sthetoscop and drive..;)
If I had vibration monitoring equipment it would be easy (I have a lot of experience in vibration/noise measurment.....just one of the things I did in the past as well). You can correlate vibration with noise and any rotating equipment. It is so easy....either in time domain or frequency domain.....
I give Nissan chance. They were very resposive on the phone so we will see.
I was listeng to the car today on my way to work and back. It is definitely there. I know that. I can hear it, I can feel it. Problem I will go West at the begining of May so I need to fix it before....in the meantime Houston and Canada........eh, time is what I do not have....
Still love the bloody car.........I do not know what it is but I do........Just ordered B-Quiet. My next project.... |
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| Kris |
| Just ordered mechanics stethoscope.........guess for $15 I cannot go wrong. And it may prove usefull.......In the bottom of my heart I am an engineer..........I love fixing things...eh, maybe one day we can even tech dealer mechanics how to do good job, and more importantly how to deal with customers who really want to help them.......dream? Ye...........now back to reality.... |
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| hfelknor |
No offense, but a good technician will out trouble shoot an engineer every time.
Of course, mark that I said a GOOD technician.
Engineer are always making assumptions.
A good tech never does.
Homer |
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| Kris |
Homer,
No offense but there are technicians and technicians, engineers and engineers.
I know, some of the engineers never had a tool in their hands……they are not real engineers…….at least not in my books……and believe me I did have a technician that I would never ever trade for an engineer………at least not for troubleshooting in an industrial environment……
Trouble is that so called technicians, in most of the dealerships threat, customers like they were stupid……..what really set me off is when a “trained monkey” is trying to give me BS and when I politely try to straighten it up I am treated badly……almost abused……what I do not tolerate is arrogance in conjunction with stupidity……it really sets me off…… I guess what they really need is training in troubleshooting and customer relationship…. |
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| Frumunda Cheese |
| So my Nissan financing guy is trying to BS me into buying the warranty and tells me he use to be a tech. Shows me all his awards...congratulations. I ask all my good questions, break in period? "Oh, there isn't one, you can wind this thing out off the lot, I even have a murano." Go home and read the manual and like I thought, "Do not drive over 4k rpms for 500 miles." Liar or idiot? |
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| Cacique |
quote:
Originally posted by Frumunda Cheese
Liar or idiot?
I vote for both! An IDIOT LIAR:mad: |
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| mgthe3 |
I second the motion!
On the engineer thing....
I have a bro inlaw that graduated from Georgia Tech with an aeronautical engineering degree. He was snapped up in a hurry by Boeing. Boeing makes engineers do the line work on the planes they are about to do engineering on---all phases of the line. It is so they can understand what it is to have to put things together that they engineer. My bro inlaw lasted about 8 months at that and couldn't stand it. He went from that to space station design, from that to Jet engine vectoring design at pratt witney, to turbine design at GE.
Boeing seems to be doing the right thing IMHO.
I have had titles of technician and engineer. Currently it's engineer.
So long as you fix it and do it well, I don't care what they call you. |
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| njjoe |
Troubleshooting? It is becoming a lost art at car dealerships.
It has been my experience that dealership service technicians rarely if ever perform true troubleshooting on your car. What they are proficient at is plugging in the diagnostic tool, reading the error code(s) and replacing the indicated part(s). If no error code is displayed many service techs are stymied and will report "no problem found", as in Kris' case. We see this time and time again, especially with body/chassis noises. You bring the car in for service because it is making a noise and they insult you by saying it isn't making a noise.
A good technician must have good troubleshooting skills. Instead of just replacing the defective part, a good troubleshooter will look "upstream" of the damaged component to look for a cause, and "downstream" of the part to look for collateral damage.
Dealerships are not conducive to developing good troubleshooters. They are a volume business. The techs need to service as many cars as possible to maximize profits. Emphasis is placed on turnaround, not customer satisfaction.
-njjoe |
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| Enforcer |
| Kris, I've used my stethoscope to find where noises are really coming from many times, you won't regret it. |
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| Kris |
It was a beautiful day on Sunday. The temps were mid 80’s so we took this opportunity and went to Georgia Mountains. Stunning drive! The roads were at top shape and the surface very smooth. This gave me a prefect opportunity to try to locate the source of the noise, or rather make sure it is there! And it is there! My wife could hear it and it definitely is coming from the engine bay. Not from the wheels.
It starts at approximately 35 mph and increases in pitch and amplitude with the car speed. At approximately 55 mph is almost completely disappears only to come back at 60 mph. This time it is louder and has lower frequency. I can reproduce it every time as it is there. Always. Switching to N (Neutral) does not change a thing. I had a look at the CVT cross section drawing and came to conclusion that there are three possible sources of the noise: wheel bearings, CV and differential mechanism. Apparently dealer eliminated the wheel bearings (and the noise appears to be coming from the engine bay so it sounds logical). So what is left is CV or the diff. If it is the diff the CVT will have to be replaced! Now I can see what is waiting for me…….an uphill battle with Nissan as it may cost them a lot of money. I would not care about it that much if it wasn’t for the upcoming trip. I just do not want to get stranded in the middle of vacation and in the middle of nowhere….Nissan has not contacted me back yet so I guess is time to call them. |
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| Kris |
Just got a phone call from Nissan. Apparently Nissan contacted the dealer who serviced my car. The dealer said that the car was inspected by a Nissan authorized technician and nothing was wrong. It was “normal’ noise. Nissan trusts the dealer so is not going to do anything. Also the tank protector is a safety measure that “looks great and does the job” so this is end of the story.
I was also told that I can go on my own and seek help form another “authorized dealer”. Nissan closed the case. What a joke! And I thought that they care!
Should I send a letter to Nissan? I may yet to do it but seeing what transpired I am on my own.
There is another dealer close to me so I may go to them and try my luck…………not really happy with Nissan handling it. And I thought I should give Nissan second chance! Stupid me..... |
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| Eric L. |
This is what happens when Nissan treats their customers as the average joe - i.e. clueless about their car and just want a loud noise to be fixed at whatever the cost. The victim are people like us who actually know a thing or two about our vehicles and what sounds should and should not be made.
I guess all I can say to make you feel better is aren't you glad you have the extended warranty?
Good luck Kris and hope the noise is just that...a noise. |
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| njjoe |
Kris-
I imagine the call from Nissan North America to your dealership went something like this:
Nissan-NA - "Hello, I am calling about an open complaint from Kris. He claims his MO is making a noise and your dealership failed to locate the source. So tell me, is his MO making a noise?"
Dealership - "Well, I don't remember the particulars, but I am pretty sure there were no noises that were out or the ordinary."
Nissan-NA - "O.K., don't sweat it, we'll close the case."
_________________
Hey Nissan Customer Service - SHIFT_:moon:
__________________
-njjoe |
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| Eric L. |
| njjoe, you included an extra "F" in the nissan "slogan"....not that I as a "moderator" could ever "approve" of such an accurate statement.....:p |
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| Kris |
Thanks guy, I have cooled down......
Eric,
I most likely will take the car to another dealer tomorrow.
njjoe,
I love you statement! I think your description of the call from Nissan customer affair to the dealer was accurate.....
I understand that troubleshooting can be difficult. But I was under impression that if there is a difference of opinions Nissan would step in and try to find out what actually happened. It was just a waste of time to call them.
I guess this Saturday I will go the the dealer and try 10 or 20 cars to find out if they have noise.......I may even comment of the "high quality service" the dealership provides to the prospective customers.........no, I am professional I would not do it........but then again....;) |
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| Kris |
After getting useless "help" from Nissan I have done some more investigation of the noise. I have eliminated transmission and the differential – stethoscope worked! What remained is tires, wheel bearings and CV’s. I do not believe it is tire noise, as it does not depend on road surface. A CV going bad would make a different noise. So what left? Wheel bearing. Now, here is my take on why it is so difficult to diagnose for Nissan “certified technicians” – false brinelling.
For those unfamiliar with this phenomenon. . False brinelling is caused by ambient vibration. Even a brand new bearing, sealed in a box on a shelf, is subject to false brinelling if it is exposed to environmental vibrations for an extended period. When a bearing is not operating it is subject to false brinelling in the box or in the machine. When a bearing is operating, there is an oil film between the rolling elements and the raceways. Muranos are transported from Japan and the trip is quite a long one. It is conceivable that some bearing develop slight false brinelling. It may not be apparent for the first even several thousands of miles but eventually it will. I have seen it many times in industrial applications ; pumps, motors, gearboxes that have been transported on trucks or trains without proper protection.
Problem is that this condition may last almost forever! Yes, it does shorten bearing life but in our cases the bearing may not really fail (or what Nissan would consider failure) during the lifetime of the car. Why is it so difficult to diagnose? The noise is there……yes, everybody aggress. But when they take the car on lift and check the bearings they can detect nothing! And I believe them. This condition is only detectable under load! And most likely only bearing inner race has brinelling marks. And only on the bottom of the race – load zone. So when Murano is lifted wheel loads inner race part directly opposite to the “normal” load zone.
In summary Nissan mechanic follows normal procedure and of course fails to detect the problem because lack of knowledge or skills. So there must be no problem! What is next option – car performs as designed! And we are going in circle.
In the past I have done tests for warranty purposes and in many cases I did detect false brinelling. When I think back the noise I hear is consistent with my past experience.
Question to you gurus, does my rambling make any sense?
In order to test it vibration readings would have to be taken under the load, when Murano is moving. Or bearing hub assembly taken apart. I am almost tempted to do it….. |
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| Kris |
| Here is how false brinelling may look like.. |
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| njjoe |
Kris-
I found the following at wikipedia.org:
"The discovery of false brinelling is unclear but one story describes how, in the 1930s, new automobiles were loaded on to trains for delivery; when they were unloaded, some would show severe wheel bearing damage. On further inspection, it turned out that many wheel bearings were slightly damaged. The damage was eventually traced to rocking of the autos and the regular impact every time a railroad car wheel passed a track joint. These forces led to false brinelling."
It looks like your theory is not without precedent.
-njjoe |
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| Kris |
Conclusion……….almost
I believe you guys deserve an update.
I have received a letter from Nissan Consumer Affair Manager. It boiled down to – “I have carefully reviewed the case with the dealer service Manager and the technician who serviced your car. We came to conclusion that the car performs as designed.” There is more but just useless text.
3 days ago I took the car to another dealer and told them blank “there is a problem with front wheel bearing. Fix it”. And they did. No more noise. Car is quiet as it used to be. Or even quieter as the deadening really works! The dealer talked me into CVT fluid and belts change. As I was going to do it anyway (60k miles on the clock!) I agreed. I think CVT performs better now. Though I am not sure as in 2 days I changed oil, cooling fluid, CVT fluid and the front driver side-wheel bearing.
So what is the conclusion?
Nissan had a first time buyer and a loyal customer (me). I really wanted to help them solve the problem. They screwed it up. At the end I was right though they wasted 2 days of my time off work, altered vacation (nobody managed to do it in the past!), made me a good “ambassador for Nissan” as I am going to tell everybody how bad Nissan service is. I guess Nissan Customer Affair department should change the name to “Nissan Dealers Protection Agency”.
Anyway, Murano is back to the way I wanted. And I was right from the beginning. And I am going to tell it to the Service Manager at a dealership who could not diagnose the obvious problem, as I am a big believer in continuous improvement so they need to know. I am sure they do not care but still…….
Just make we wonder what the Nisan Certification for technicians is worth…….I guess less than the paper it is written on… |
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| Enforcer |
| Pretty sad but not surprised. You ought to write them a letter and say exactly what you did here. You might suggest they add mechanics stethoscope training to the certified technician course :D. |
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| mgthe3 |
Hey Kris, did Gwinnett Nissan fix it?
Bearings aren't that expensive nor hard for a $tealership to look at.
Blows my mind how such an obvious thing to look at wasn't done instead of all the other things they did.
At least it is fixed.
Good for you.
;) |
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| njjoe |
quote:
Originally posted by Kris
I guess Nissan Customer Affair department should change the name to “Nissan Dealers Protection Agency”.
Kris,
An excellent observation.
Once they hand over the keys and cash your check Nissan doesn't give a damn.
Nissan Customer Support is an oxymoron.
-njjoe |
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| GripperDon |
A Tech is a tech and a Engineer is a engineer. No amount of hands on experience converts a Tech into a Engineer. The experience may help the engineer to understand the Techs perspective. This is an oversimplification but: One guy design engines and the other fixes them. One guy under flame front velocities, Combustion chamber shape factors, Cetane ratings, Octane requirements. Lubrication film loads, etc.
I am not knocking either but stating they are different horses.
Regarding the "false brinelling" You might find it interesting that when Howard Huges had the engines for the "HK-1" (Spruce Goose) transported across country my TRAIN he had each engine fitted with recording accelerators and measured the shocks each experienced for the entire journey, concerned about just that problem. Can you imagine reading those miles of recording paper as that is all they had in those days. |
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| Kris |
Don,
Many products transported recently are equipped with 3-axis accelerometers connected to appropriate signal recorders. This equipment is quite inexpensive now. Imagine $500k transformer being subjected to frequent shock while in transport! And then installed at a power station! No amount of testing during commissioning would detect or measure the impact of the shock loading on various parts. Though what is certain excessive shock would adversely affect long term reliability….
Engineers v. technicians – I would not argue with that one as both have different tasks to do. Problem is the dealers attitude, and covering ignorance and stupidity behind Certificates that are worth nothing…anyway, Nissan lost my respect as well as my dealer…..and it will take a lot to bring it back.. I know, I know they do give a d…..anyway… |
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| GripperDon |
A terrible shame he was so badly bured in hiscrash, that is what changed his life and started the germ fobia.
A good bio of his life is very interesting reading.
Glad the noise is gone, I should have mentioned that with all the sound proofing you are doing that some frame communiated sounds become much more audible as the background din is so attenuated. |
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| Kris |
Closure….
NNA customer affair department hunted me down and apologized. Also dealer Service manager (NEW!) apologized as well. As compensation the ugly plastic fuel tank protector was changed out. Now I have aluminum one! So at least one positive thing came out of this mess.
Conclusion? I am not sure about what to think about NNA. I have to say though that in the end they came through and are on the way to rebuild they reputation. At least with me. Mistakes do happen and it is the way companies handle problems like this count. |
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| hfelknor |
Cool.
People shouldn't have to do all that, but I am glad that it eventually worked out.
How about a pix of the aluminum shield?
They tell me they can't get one.
No big deal. No more danger than before and i wouldn't buy another Nissan if they paid me anyway.
I'm just curious what it looks like.....on a real customer car.
Decided to wait on the tires.
I messed around and will be leaving for GA (Jekyll Isle) this saturday.
I should have put them on a couple of weeks ago to leave time for the almost inevitable "adjustments". |
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| Kris |
My DP&S just quit working. And is raining outside so I do not want to risk my $3k DSLR…
Anyway, below are two pic of the shield. It looks much worse on photos than in reality. Basically you cannot see it!
This is true, dealers cannot get them. It was a special order to compensate me for “inconvenience”.
Tires – my are almost there. Today in rain I was spinning them on every intersection! I guess soon I will have to look around.
Good luck with your trip. |
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| Eric L. |
| If it looks "much worse" on the photos than in reality, then the plastic shield must score like -10 bajillion points on the ugly meter. I admit I am tempted to complain to NNA now, but would rather not have to visit the dealership again (its inconvenient to lose the car for a day). |
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| njjoe |
Kris-
Thanx for the pix of the elusive aluminum shield. I felt like I was watching the Discovery Channel doing a special on the Loch Ness monster. There had been rumors about the aluminum shield, purported sightings, but your pix, I believe, were the first actual photos.
The first pic shows the shield does not drop as low as the exhaust pipe. That's good news. The second pic, however, is deceiving. It makes it look like the shield comes to within a few inches of the floor.
I wonder how they got their hands on an aluminum shield?
-njjoe |
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| Kris |
OK,
where is the fuel tank shield? :D
Joe,
I do not know how did they get it. I think NNA was involved... |
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| Enforcer |
quote:
Originally posted by njjoe
Kris-
Thanx for the pix of the elusive aluminum shield. I felt like I was watching the Discovery Channel doing a special on the Loch Ness monster. There had been rumors about the aluminum shield, purported sightings, but your pix, I believe, were the first actual photos.
-njjoe
actually bkburns posted the first pics I think: http://www.nissanmurano.org/forums/...15&pagenumber=9
Glad to see NNA came through. |
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| hfelknor |
I wanted to see the difference in Factory and dealer installed.
Maybe I'm screwed up, but it looks different to me.
Nobody, but nobody, is going to put that dealer installed aluminum shield on my car.
Homer |
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| Kris |
Homer,
it does not look that bad. You almost cannot see it from side. Also, I am planning to spray it with dampening spray so it will be even less visible. |
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| Kris |
| OK. I have sprayed the tank shields with undercoat. Now it is black. In time it will be same color as the under body. I am quite happy with the results. See the pic. |
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| Eric L. |
quote:
Originally posted by Kris
OK. I have sprayed the tank shields with undercoat. Now it is black. In time it will be same color as the under body. I am quite happy with the results. See the pic.
Very nice! |
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