| Hilbe |
I am working with Aaron from NissanWorks (http://www.nissanworks.com) to try to get a phenolic spacer developed for the Murano. He's currently working to make one for the latest Maximas (5th and 6th gen in development now). I told him there might be a demand to have one made for the Murano. Who would be interested? Does anyone happen to have some pictures of the Murano's intake manifold without the engine cover blocking it?
See the below URL for information about the Maxima phenolic spacer development:
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=514151
Thanks,
Hilbe |
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| Hilbe |
Anyone have any pictures of the engine without the engine cover on it?
*bump* |
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| njjoe |
H-
Remove the cover. It is cosmetic and only secured with 4 bolts.
-njjoe |
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| Hilbe |
Well, the kit for the 3.5L is now out. Aaron thinks it'll fit the Murano and will pay for shipping back if it does not. I ordered one for my Maxima. If I get some deeper pockets I may order one for the Murano :) See below link $235 shipped. Should help us get some more MPG out of the Murano.
http://www.nissanworks.com/Phenolic_Spacers.html |
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| elerico |
the phenolic spacer work with oui murano ??
are you sure ?
how much can we expect |
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| Eric L. |
| MOD: Moved to "Performance" as requested by Hilbe. |
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| Hilbe |
quote:
Originally posted by elerico
the phenolic spacer work with oui murano ??
are you sure ?
how much can we expect
Aaron from Nissan Works says they fit. The average dyno of the 3.5L engine yields about 10hp and 12tq. I think someone dyno'd a 2002 or 2003 Nissan Maxima with the VQ engine. It should take like 3 or 4 hours to install, which is a downside. |
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| ekaxel |
| All that work to tear up the transmission??? |
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| Hilbe |
quote:
Originally posted by ekaxel
All that work to tear up the transmission???
Tear up the transmission? All this does is insulates the engine from the intake manifold so you get cool(er) air...more hp/tq...and better mpg. |
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| Aaron92SE |
quote:
Originally posted by elerico
the phenolic spacer work with oui murano ??
are you sure ?
how much can we expect
As Hilbe mentioned, these SHOULD work on the Murano. But they have not been tested yet. The gains seen with the Maximas and 3.5 Altimas are 10hp and 12ft-lbs of torque below 5K rpm. And they provide a HUGE decrease in upper intake manifold and throttle body temps! You will see over a 40 degree temperature drop!
Also, if someone is interested in testing these spacers on the Murano and if for any reason the fitment isn't exact, I will accept a return and pay for all your shipping costs so you won't be out any money. |
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| ekaxel |
| Nissan had a very good reason to detune the MO engine..... |
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| Eric L. |
Honestly I've never heard of this type of mod, so I cannot comment on whether I'm familiar with whether it really works or not. Seems like a lot of labor would be involved to install it though.
I doubt adding a few horsepower will blow up the CVT. Remember the CVT is designed to last at least through the warranty period even if you tow a 3500lb trailer with the MO everyday, so I think it has *some* reserve on what it can handle. Adding 20hp? Probably not an issue. Adding 100hp, ok thats probably not a good idea. The Murano GT-C was torque limited to 265 lb/ft (even though it made more horsepower) to protect the CVT I think, so thats probably the safe limit. That said, the Murano is probably not the best platform to modify - its not meant to be a sports car, but it shouldn't stop people from trying anyways - its their money to spend. |
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| Kris |
quote:
Originally posted by Eric L.
Honestly I've never heard of this type of mod, so I cannot comment on whether I'm familiar with whether it really works or not. Seems like a lot of labor would be involved to install it though.
My understanding is that they insulate components and there is only minimal heat transfer. Now the question - how does this change engine performance? $225 is not a lot of money but there is also a lot of labor involved. And there is always the possibility something can go wrong....10HP and 12 lb/ft of torque - how much difference it makes in normal driving? Would anybody notice it? Maybe on the race track.....
As Eric said - its your money. Spend it the way you want..... |
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| Aaron92SE |
The best way to do additional research on these spacers is to see what Maxima and Altima owners are saying.
If the moderators will allow, I would like to link to a couple threads on another forum. I'm not sure if this is a violation of the rules.
But others experience a noticable low end and mid range power gain. Most importantly, they notice that the car isn't nearly as effected by heat soak as it was before. That means, your car won't get as slow once it heats up, especially in the summer time!
The labor that is involved to install these spacers should take 2 hours for the experienced mechanic. If you are doing the job yourself for the first time, allow 3 hours. Instructions on how to install these spacers can be found on my website or you can download the PDF file directly HERE. |
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| Kris |
Aaron92SE
I have FX35, 2004 and intend to keep it for a while. Would this spacer fit?
You dyno test sheet starts at 3,800 rpm. Do you have data going down to 2,000 rpm?
Thanks |
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| Hilbe |
quote:
Originally posted by Kris
Aaron92SE
I have FX35, 2004 and intend to keep it for a while. Would this spacer fit?
Take a picture of the IM with the plastic off it. I think that'll give Aaron a clue. |
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| Aaron92SE |
quote:
Originally posted by Kris
Aaron92SE
I have FX35, 2004 and intend to keep it for a while. Would this spacer fit?
If the intake manifold looks just like the one in this picture, then yes, it's safe to assume it will match up properly. The only thing that might be a factor is how much clearance you have in the engine bay. The upper intake manifold will be raised exactly 3/16" since you are adding a 1/4" spacer and removing a 1/16" thick metal IM gasket.
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| njjoe |
quote:
Originally posted by GripperDon
So I won't.
Ah, go ahead, this is a "balanced" forum. It is good to hear both the pros and cons on every issue and/or mod.
-njjoe |
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| GripperDon |
What type of phenolic is it?
Will it stand up to the heat?
Will it leak or crack?
Will the extra thickness let the manifold vibrate more and do what ?
The labor of putting it in seems a lot for the gains.
The potential interference problems may be greater than imagined.
As I said I am old and seem to be less positive than when young and worry more.
Finally I am sure it cost a lot to make such a limited quanity but it is a lot of $. |
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| Aaron92SE |
quote:
Originally posted by GripperDon
What type of phenolic is it?
Will it stand up to the heat?
Will it leak or crack?
Will the extra thickness let the manifold vibrate more and do what ?
The labor of putting it in seems a lot for the gains.
The potential interference problems may be greater than imagined.
As I said I am old and seem to be less positive than when young and worry more.
Finally I am sure it cost a lot to make such a limited quanity but it is a lot of $.
It's ok to ask these questions. They aren't negative comments.
The phenolic material I use is a VERY durable glass epoxy laminate that will keep 100% of it's strength up to 300 degrees. That is overkill for surface temps on the heads. Most other companies cheap out and use a type of Nylon, which is only good for about 230 degrees until it softens at an accelerated rate.
The material I use will NOT soften or lose it's shape overtime as nylon and teflon does! My spacers will last a lifetime.
Also, you asked if it will leak or crack. Definitely not. It's very strong and has a higher tensile and impact strength than any other type of phenolic. Most people think of that cheap paper based laminate material when they hear the term "phenolic".
Also, you will not experience any intake leaks if they are properly installed using RTV on both sides of the spacers.
The thickness of these spacers will not cause the intake manifold to vibrate any more than before. The material has similiar expansion characteristics of the surrounding aluminum and is just as tough. So it holds up well sandwiched inbetween the manifolds.
The amount of labor involved to install these spacers is 2-3 hours. If you have never removed your intake manifold before, it may take 3 hours. But I can do the install in under 2 hours. The part that takes the longest is taking the time to apply the RTV carefully on both sides of all the spacers.
These spacers have been tested on several Maximas and Altimas around the world and every single one of my customers are happy with the results. I'm sure the Murano community will be just as happy with my product. |
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| GripperDon |
| I appreciate your taking the time. :) |
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| Tyler_Canada |
| I think it would be a nice compliment to an intake. |
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| Aaron92SE |
quote:
Originally posted by Tyler_Canada
I think it would be a nice compliment to an intake.
Yes, it most definitely is. When you free up the restriction by putting a better air filter and intake tubing, you generally will gain mid range and top end power. These spacers will provide better low end and mid range power under 5K rpm.
A lot of Maximas and Altimas are porting their intake manifolds and when combined with these spacers, it makes for a really smooth power curve with a nice increase in power across the entire powerband. In fact, I have a manifold set I'm porting today for a 5th gen Maxima. |
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| Hilbe |
| Got my spacers today, took 3 days from order to get them. Everything is well packaged and well labeled with a set of instructions. Too bad this set is for my Maxima. If this is semi-easy install, I'll order a set for my Murano. :) |
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| Hilbe |
| I installed these in the Maxima this weekend. Took me like 5 or 6 hours...pretty neat...we'll see if I get some for the Murano or not. |
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| ekaxel |
In the negative vein:If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
I don't understand all this performance stuff.
1. Most of it (not necessarily these spacers) do nothing and cost money.
2. If you want a high performance vehicle, what are you doing here??? |
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| Hilbe |
quote:
Originally posted by ekaxel
1. Most of it (not necessarily these spacers) do nothing and cost money.
True, but in this forum we've posted mods that do provide some additional performance. We've also posted a few that do nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by ekaxel
2. If you want a high performance vehicle, what are you doing here??? [/B]
I don't think anyone has claimed the Murano to be a high performance vehicle. It does have the same engine as the 350Z, Altima, Maxima, Quest, etc. So we know it has a wide range of applications, and more horsepower/torque can be squeezed out of it. As most men I enjoy the torque and horsepower of a vehicle. If I can get a few more out of it for a few hundred bucks, why not? If I can increase my fuel efficiency by doing a mod at the same cost, why not? Part of it is the fun in doing the install and the pride of doing it... |
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| ekaxel |
| Whatever floats your boat..... |
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| SIM |
I also agree that if the upgrade brings more safe horsepowers, it should be available. This is why companies like Steve Millen, HKS, etc.. have designed safe stages for specific Nissan vehicles but none for the Murano, simply because there is no safe power upgrade for the Murano and they try to keep away as much as possible from lawsuits, not easy money (since all the VQs are basically the same).
6 years after its introduction, there is still nothing or close to nothing available to increase but very sligthly the MO's performance. The reason for this is not very hard to understand. You can transform a F-150 into a drag machine because it can be done safely, not because it is a performance vehicle as designed.
For a few hundred bucks spent on the MO you will simply have a placebo effect because all upgrades will automatically be detuned by the ECU in a few seconds to save the transfer case and the transmission. It manages everything and when it is not sure, the ECU makes the power lag for a few tenths of a second (especially when you abruptly step on it) just to control everything. This is why the MO is equiped with an electronic gas pedal. Until you can get your hand on a reprogrammed ECU you have nothing or very close to it.
Finally, power and fuel economy are located at the opposite side of the line. You can go either direction but very basic physics laws stipulate that in a combustion engine, if you want more power, you have to burn more fuel. There is absolutely no exception. |
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| Kris |
SIM
you put it in such an elegant form.........could not agree more..... |
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| Tyler_Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by SIM
Finally, power and fuel economy are located at the opposite side of the line. You can go either direction but very basic physics laws stipulate that in a combustion engine, if you want more power, you have to burn more fuel. There is absolutely no exception.
It's true you won't get both at the same time, BUT... you could have a mod that will give you either, depending on how you use the pedal. Take it easy - get better mileage; stomp on it - get more power. |
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| Hilbe |
| I think this topic should be split from this thread...way off topic here. |
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| ekaxel |
Split what?
The merits (or lack thereof) are not part of the discussion?? |
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| SIM |
I do have a lot more confidence in the members of this forum than any marketing argument from any "performance expert". When Steve Millen (Stillen) guarantees with dyno numbers that replacing my 300ZX TT intercoolers with theirs increased my HPs by 40, I believe it. I have the hard dyno facts in front of my eyes. It had been tested so many times and it works.
All we hear here is, well it works on the Maxima, it should also work on the MO. Oh yeah! And how will you be able to evaluate the result? By the seat fo your pants? Placebo effect. Hey, I just invested 4 hours of my precious time and $400 in increasing my MO's HP by 12, I SHALL feel it no matter what!
How can you "feel" 12 HP over 240? An increase of 5%? Good luck! Replacing the stock air box on my TT with HKS CAI double K&N heads added 35 more HP to my stock 300, an increase of 12% and I could barely feel it!
Make a dyno run and let's study the results, before and after.
A Maxima is not a MO. Even if they share the same base engine, they are not powered the same way. AWD and CVT make a whole world of difference and their respective ECUs are programmed totally differently. Remember that the Max has already 25+ more HPs, 60+ for the Z.
I have personally experienced how effiiciently the MO's ECU reacts when you try to cheat it and although I love performance, the only reason that I would invest $10 in increasing the MO's performance was if I had the GTC ECU to begin with. |
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| SIM |
Tyler, sorry I missed your post earlier. Driving with a light foot always is more economical but, it will always be more economical to drive a Civic with the pedal to the metal than any 426 Hemi even at idle.
What I mean is that no matter how you drive, if you increase the HPs, you will always end up with more gas being burned. I had this electronic device in my TT that was keeping the wastegates from opening up to a dial-in pressure. Stock figure was 7 PSI but with this device, I could keep them shut up to 22 PSI. I could turn it on or off at will and go back to stock PSI.
Guess how many miles I drove at stock setting after I installed this nifty gizzmo? :2:
But a turbo setup is a different environment. It is usually quite easier (and cheaper) to build many more HPs into a turbo engine than on any normally aspirated one. A pair of visegrip on the vacuum hose used to make my friend's Subaru Brat spins its 4 wheels as a drag machine. It didn't last very long but hey, it didn't cost much. |
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| njjoe |
quote:
Originally posted by SIM
All we hear here is, well it works on the Maxima, it should also work on the MO. Oh yeah! And how will you be able to evaluate the result? By the seat fo your pants? Placebo effect. Hey, I just invested 4 hours of my precious time and $400 in increasing my MO's HP by 12, I SHALL feel it no matter what!
SIM-
Excellent post!
Many people also equate an increase in exhaust or intake noise to an increase in power. It sounds more powerful, so therefor it must be more powerful. The placebo effect.
-njjoe |
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| WrenchGremlin |
quote:
Originally posted by SIM
I have personally experienced how effiiciently the MO's ECU reacts when you try to cheat it and although I love performance, the only reason that I would invest $10 in increasing the MO's performance was if I had the GTC ECU to begin with.
I've been been reading this thread thinking to myself that this spacer doesn't actually boost HP, but rather preserve it. Given that, I cannot see why the ECU would detune the engine in this situtation.
-WG |
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| SIM |
Well Mr WrenchGremlin, if you look closely at the company's ad, it says blue on white that:
10hp and 12ft-lb gain & 40*F temp drop on the VQ35DE
So yes indeed, it pretends adding power. The power curve does not have to be preserved. It is 240 HP at 5800 RPM at operating temperature, nothing more, nothing less. It does not have more power in winter. |
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| Hilbe |
This is a legitimate mod and has been done for other Nissan vehicles for years. Only recently has it been made for the 3.5L engine. There are lots of happy people with it (self included) for the 3.5L Altima and Maxima. I'd have to search, but I believe there have been several 3rd party dynos on these vehicles that prove the gains advertised.
I can tell you after installing the spacers on the Maxima, the spacers do work. I ran the Maxima hard the other night and popped the hood right afterwards. I would describe the intake manifold as luke warm at hottest, and I was able to touch it without any worries of getting burned.
I am not sure if I want to install it again, especially on the Murano since one part of the installation requires you to do some unbolting behind the elbow and in the Murano that part of the engine is tucked nicely under the dashboard/windshield. We'll see...I'll scope it out again soon. |
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| Tyler_Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by SIM
What I mean is that no matter how you drive, if you increase the HPs, you will always end up with more gas being burned. I had this electronic device in my TT that was keeping the wastegates from opening up to a dial-in pressure. Stock figure was 7 PSI but with this device, I could keep them shut up to 22 PSI. I could turn it on or off at will and go back to stock PSI.
That's a completely different situation. I was talking about N/A. In this case, you're forcing more air into the engine all the time. Which will REQUIRE more fuel! |
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| GripperDon |
The Mass flow sensor will provide input to the fuel control system which will adjust the Air Fuel ratio appropiately. If the air is colder and therefor denser and thefore has more mass, therefor more gas will be supplied.
A freeer flowing manifold will reduce pumping losses but that will only apply at WOT (wide open throttle) so the HP gain is there.
Ok? So you pays your money (put your foot down) and takes your choice. |
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| Tyler_Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by GripperDon
The Mass flow sensor will provide input to the fuel control system which will adjust the Air Fuel ratio appropiately. If the air is colder and therefor denser and thefore has more mass, therefor more gas will be supplied.
A freeer flowing manifold will reduce pumping losses but that will only apply at WOT (wide open throttle) so the HP gain is there.
Ok? So you pays your money (put your foot down) and takes your choice.
Ok, now that I think about it that way, you either don't change the mileage, or you get more power. You don't ever get better mileage. |
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| GripperDon |
| Up stream of the throttle body which provides the restriction required to go the speed you desire. |
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| rmontanez |
People:
It depends on what you want for your MO.
I did my installation with the Kinetiks Intake, the phenolic spacers and the CAI and the difference on the performance is noticeable...
It has been more than 3 months after the installation and I have not felt the ECU taking the performance out of it.
I have a few co-workers that have stock Muranos and last week We did a Light to Light race, and I beat him by more than a Car lenght.
we did about 3 times the same test and always the same result, at starting point we were side by side and after 15MPH then I started getting forward and after a mile between the lights I got ahead. Obviously after 110 both MO started loosing the kick since the ECU will hold them at 120. so between 110 and 120 you really feel the slowing of them.
So, If you have the money and want to feel more power, go ahead. If you want a sport car, then change the MO, But for me, I like the performance, I like the way it rides and the looks of it, So I'm staying with my MO....
here is the link to my photos of my Murano:
http://picasaweb.google.com/montanez.raul/Murano2004 |
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| Aaron92SE |
It's all about what floats your boat. Some people don't want to make their car faster. Some would rather spend their money on cosmetic modifications or video/audio equipment. But there are a lot of trucks and SUV enthusiasts out there that are interested in improving performance and acceleration. In fact, there are a lot of people out there making their minivans faster. It's not funny when you get beat by a minivan at the track. :)
Thanks for the review rmontanez. |
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| Eric L. |
| To be honest, if it takes ONE MILE to gain a lead on a stock MO, the performance increase is minimal at best. Usually performance gains show significant "leads" by the quarter mile. |
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| njjoe |
rmontanez-
I like your underhood photos. That's how an engine should look. I hate when manufacturers hide the engine under a plastic cover.
-njjoe |
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| SIM |
Sometimes people fail to understand the wider concept of performance and this is why the gain is so marginal, even after spending a lot of $$$.
Fixing the intake and making the air come in the engine faster and colder is one thing. But of course, if the combustion gases cannot escape any faster, the gain will always be minimal because there is an important bottleneck in the system.
There is no aftermarket full exhaust system that I know of for the MO. Maybe some catback but they do offer a partial solution only to the flow restriction.
Anyone completed a full exhaust mod on their MO yet (headers, dual or single bigger piping, ...)? |
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| rmontanez |
Quoted Text:
To be honest, if it takes ONE MILE to gain a lead on a stock MO, the performance increase is minimal at best. Usually performance gains show significant "leads" by the quarter mile.
Un-Quote....
People:
I think that I expresed myself wrong in the last statement.... When I said that I gain 1 car lenght over my co-worker, It was on a Light To Light race.... The distance between lights, 1/4, 1/6/ 1/8, really dont know because I dont measure the distance between lights neither there is a Guideline in Puerto Rico between the distance of the lights....
When I speak about a mile, it is more or less the distance that the Murano reaches top end, and It does not matter because our MOs has the velocity Limiter at 120..... so as I said before, we can spend 10 thousand dollars in enhancements but until we dont get the limiter out or we get to the limit of the CVT tranny we will not be able to go faster...
The goal of investing my money was and is tro get to the top speed faster... And I acomplished it.
The exhaust system, I am working with a friend of mine who owns a Muffler Shop and probably I will replace the tubbing from the Exhaust Manifold to the end using 2 tubes, and independent mufflers for each Manifold. If you have been under your Murano at the engine side you will notice that from factory the Flattened the exhaust to accomodate it between the engine and the crossmember, We are working on alternate routes so we dont need to use that flattened area and have a clean exhaust till the end..... I am not doing it right now because I have to save for that Upgrade, the intake took a lot of Money...
By the end, I will NOT be able to go over 120 because of the limiter but I will get there More faster than before....
Those are my 5 cents on the story, and I am aware that I have an SUV not a SPORT car....
Keep in touch |
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| Hilbe |
quote:
Originally posted by SIM
Sometimes people fail to understand the wider concept of performance and this is why the gain is so marginal, even after spending a lot of $$$.
Fixing the intake and making the air come in the engine faster and colder is one thing. But of course, if the combustion gases cannot escape any faster, the gain will always be minimal because there is an important bottleneck in the system.
There is no aftermarket full exhaust system that I know of for the MO. Maybe some catback but they do offer a partial solution only to the flow restriction.
Anyone completed a full exhaust mod on their MO yet (headers, dual or single bigger piping, ...)?
I am paying very close attention to this area. Headers are due out for the VQ35DE that'll fit the Altima and Maxima, assume they may also fit the Murano. They won't be cheap though, both to buy and put on.
One thing I haven't posted yet is I have a performance Y-Pipe coming that is made for the Altima/Maxima. I am going to see how it looks in terms of fitting the Murano, but am thinking it probably will not fit. The Y-Pipe right now has a flat section that I do not believe is on the Altima/Maxima. Updates to follow. |
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| Tyler_Canada |
| I contacted some companies a couple of years ago who already had headers for the Altima, and they said there was no way they would fit on the Murano. |
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| SIM |
| Some variables are already affecting the future release of new gadgets for the current MO. First, it is close to be thoroughly redesigned. Second, the CVT is always a big question mark and it scares the potential shops away. Third, there are simply not enough interested MO owners on the road after 4-5 years to invest in designing and building specific perfromance parts. |
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