| bjh |
| Just washed my car of 3 weeks and was shocked to see all the tiny, fine scratches throughout! How can this be? I never saw it at the dealership. At any rate, I tried some waxing and it made it look better but up close you can still see some fine lines and swirls. I know black cars are bad to do this, but is there any product recommended that would help this problem? Does anyone out there have a black one they have experienced this with, and if so, what di you do?? Thanks so much for any advice. |
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| special-k |
I'm a member of a forum dedicated to detailing cars... what you're describing is often referred to as the "DISO" -- Dealer Installed Swirl Option.
Black (and other dark-colored cars) are especially susceptible to visible swirls. Lighter-colored cars usually hide the swirls a little better.
Very (/very/) few dealers know how to properly wash a car. You may not want to hear this, but you may have caused some of the swirling yourself depending on your wash method.
Swirling happens because when cars are being washed, tiny particles of dirt get trapped in the wash mitt or towel and get dragged around the paint, creating tiny swirls and scratches. Almost EVERY SINGLE new car I've seen has some swirling in it, because they rush through washing the cars on the lot and no one at a dealership is a true detail professional. Sometimes you won't notice the swirls right away because they've been covered up with heavy waxes, or you didn't see the car in certain light, etc.
I would be happy to give you as much excruciating detail as you care to digest, but in short, automatic car washes are TERRIBLE. Even the touchless ones, they use fairly aggressive chemicals. Taking your car to a "hand" car wash isn't much better, because they DEFINITELY don't use proper washing methods. They are moving cars in quantity, and there's no way they use fresh water, proper soaps, and new wash mitts and towels for each car. Honestly and truly, the only way to maintain a swirl-free finish is to make sure you wash the car yourself using proper methods. It takes a little time and a little know-how, but the benefits are well worth the effort.
As far as removing the swirls -- take heart. You have some options. A good quality cleaner polish and some elbow grease will get rid of those nasties. I can go into more detail on how to remove the swirls if you like, just let me know. The important thing is that once you get rid of the swirls, that you make sure you don't put them right back into the paint by washing!
Watch this video to get you started.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...756069207401372
Let me know when you're ready for some more detail on getting rid of those swirls and scratches. :) |
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| bjh |
| WOW....Wish I had watched this BEFORE the Murano got washed. I learned so much, and I will definitely wash the car differently from here on. I appreciate the video and the technique. I will NO LONGER go through so called Soft car washes, and I will wash by hand but also use the grit catchers and several buckets! Now, If you can help me get rid of the scratches that are already there that I can't seem to make disappear, I would be MOST grateful! Thanks again. |
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| special-k |
quote:
Originally posted by bjh
WOW....Wish I had watched this BEFORE the Murano got washed. I learned so much, and I will definitely wash the car differently from here on. I appreciate the video and the technique. I will NO LONGER go through so called Soft car washes, and I will wash by hand but also use the grit catchers and several buckets! Now, If you can help me get rid of the scratches that are already there that I can't seem to make disappear, I would be MOST grateful! Thanks again.
OK... first question. How much time/effort/money are you willing to dedicate to the "cause"? I ask because while you can certainly attack those swirls and scratches by hand... you're going to spend hours and have some seriously sore shoulders at the end of it. If you're willing to start and stick to a good routine of washes and polishes/waxes when necessary, I would recommend you get yourself a polisher. They can be had for about $100 for what is pretty much considered the "standard" in the detailing community. Of course, you'll need an assortment of pads, backing plates, etc. Plus the products for polishing and waxing. I would say you would be investing less than $200 for everything you would need -- and that investment will prepare you for your future paint maintenance. Consider that a detail shop would likely charge you at least $200 to go over your entire car to buff out the scratches, and, sadly, they probably wouldn't do that great of a job anyway.
OR, as I said, you can do it by hand. You'll still need an assortment of proper applicator pads (of varying "cut" or aggressiveness) and a few different products.
To me, the $100 - $200 is TOTALLY worth the investment as it cuts your polishing and waxing time WAY down, and gives better, more even results. It pays for itself almost immediately in time and effort saved.
Whaddya think? |
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| bjh |
| Yes, I think the money would be a wise investment. I would rather pay more and cut down on the time and energy it would take for me to do it by hand. |
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| Lightninrod |
Good video but for one thing. I was taught a long time ago to not use the hard spray hose attachment except when spraying the car initially to get the surface, loose dirt off. When rinsing the soap off, it is better to just use the flow of water from the hose without any sprayer attached. The gentle flow of water when rinsing reduces any spotting when drying the car off.
Dan |
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| Gonzo |
| OK Dan you've got me curious.... why is hard spray OK at first but not for rinising the soap off the car? I'm not following. |
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| TheGymKid |
| I can't watch the video while here at work... but I have a question. I always wax my Murano once in the spring (before the summer) and once in the Fall (before the winter). Is that good or bad ?? |
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| Lightninrod |
Gonzo: The hard(use the medium spray setting--too harsh/powerful a spray can drive grit into the clearcoat) spray helps loosen up the grit, dust, etc., making for less dirt(and the chance of swirls) when you apply the soapy(and do get a "car wash" type of soap) water with the lambs wool mitt.
When you go to rinse off the soapy water, a hard spray will leave drops of water on the finish but with just a soft flow of water used for rinsing, a sheet of water results and there's less chance of 'spotting'(from the water drops) on the finish.
quote:
Rinse each surface after it's been washed by flooding it with a low-pressure flow--not spraying it with a forceful stream. Rinsing as you finish washing is important: don't wash a section and then leave it to wash another. The dirty wash solution can dry on the surface, and then you're back where you started!
The above quote was taken from this article and I have seen it in others.
Dan |
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| Penderwheels |
Had a black Porsche - same problem.
Meguires Swirl Remover #2 worked for me.:) |
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| special-k |
Lightninrod makes a good point.
It's not necessary, but it does help with final rinsing to use a steady flow as it will help the water sheet off. If the car has a good wax on it, it will significantly reduce the amount of water that's left on the surface. Less to dry, and less chance of leaving spots. |
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| special-k |
quote:
Originally posted by TheGymKid
I can't watch the video while here at work... but I have a question. I always wax my Murano once in the spring (before the summer) and once in the Fall (before the winter). Is that good or bad ??
It's better than a lot of people do.
Having some good paint protection is vital. What you're doing is certainly a good start, but you would probably find that your wax doesn't last 6 months (more like 2-3). A lot of factors can contribute to how fast your wax breaks down as well. The "water bead" test is rudimentary but is a start. There's also the "squeak test" which from what I can tell is a little more accurate.
You might want to increase your waxing to every 2-3 months with checks in-between in case your protection starts to fade. Then you get into cleaning the paint (washing the car is not cleaning the paint) and polishing, etc., depending on what kind of finish you're after. |
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| special-k |
quote:
Originally posted by bjh
Yes, I think the money would be a wise investment. I would rather pay more and cut down on the time and energy it would take for me to do it by hand.
Instead of me replicating a lot of information that's already out there, I'll just suggest that you check out the Meguiar's Online forum. Let me say immediately that I am NOT affiliated with Meguiar's or Meguiar's Online in any way... I've just found that it is an excellent resource and a lot of the things that I can tell you here have already been covered in-depth there. I'd be happy to help answer your questions or help with info you might find over there. I'm sure there are plentiful other forums dedicated to detailing, I just really really like MOL. There are some AWESOME detailers there, including a lot of Meguiar's employees -- they're like the MOL versions of Jaak, GripperDon, homer, joe, and all the other MO gurus we have here.
http://meguiarsonline.com
(Mods -- if it's against policy to talk about other forums, please feel free to nuke this post. I'm not sure what the policies are.)
You'll find me on there with the same name. I only recently joined. I'm by no means an expert, but I've learned so much there (just like being a member here) that it's crazy. I've already improved my detailing skills about 1000% and I am confident to say that I do a better job than the high-dollar detail shops around town now.
As far as investing in some equipment, after you go through the introductory threads (the "start here" kind of things) you'll see lots of people referring to using a dual action polisher, by any of the following acronyms: DA, PC, G100, PC7424, PC7336
DA = Dual Action -- this is the important part to know. A dual action polisher is THE WAY to go. Old-school rotary buffers are only for advanced users, as you can seriously damage your paint. And the cheap orbital buffers you get at the auto parts store just don't have nearly enough action to really get into the paint and remove swirls, etc. The other acronyms are just names for the same thing.
PC = Porter Cable -- the defacto DA polisher that everyone uses.
PC7424 = Porter Cable 7424 - the actual model number.
PC7336 = Porter Cable 7336 - the same polisher as the 7424 but with very very very minor differences. Some have been able to find one but not the other, etc.
G100 / G100a = Meguiar's branded DA polisher. This polisher is actually a PC7424, but Meguiar's provides the correct backing plates and such to make it work with all the Meguair's pads, etc., plus they back it with a lifetime warranty. It costs a little more than the "vanilla" PC models.
Let me know when you're ready and I can help steer you in the right direction. |
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| Gonzo |
Lightningrod, I understand what you are saying and believe me I wash my car often... however I still can't understand how light water pressure is used to avoid driving grim in when no matter what you use for a mit you are rubbing dirt on the paint.
I watched the video, one thing that I thought was a good point was to use two buckets for the mit. I think the MO's paint is soft as compared to others so I'll take any suggestions where every I can. Thinking about it I generally use a soft spray when washing ecept during the winter when I hit the wheel wells, the are loaded with snow/salt build up.
We need two national holidays per year devoted to car was |
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| Gonzo |
Lightningrod, I understand what you are saying and believe me I wash my car often... however I still can't understand how light water pressure is used to avoid driving grim in when no matter what you use for a mit you are rubbing dirt on the paint.
I watched the video, one thing that I thought was a good point was to use two buckets for the mit. I think the MO's paint is soft as compared to others so I'll take any suggestions where every I can. Thinking about it I generally use a soft spray when washing ecept during the winter when I hit the wheel wells, the are loaded with snow/salt build up.
We need two national holidays per year devoted to car washing by hand. :4: |
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| special-k |
quote:
Originally posted by Gonzo
Lightningrod, I understand what you are saying and believe me I wash my car often... however I still can't understand how light water pressure is used to avoid driving grim in when no matter what you use for a mit you are rubbing dirt on the paint.
That's what car wash soap is for -- lubrication.
When you start your wash, you should spray with good pressure to remove as much surface dirt as possible. The less that's on the paint when you hit it with the mitt -- the better. As far as high pressure driving dirt into the paint, unless you're using a pressure washer personally I wouldn't worry about it. Just my $.02 -- others might have different views on it.
When it's time to wash with the mitt, the soap (when mixed at correct ratios) is designed to be a lubricant to help the mitt glide over the paint rather than drag. A quality mitt will also pull the dirt inside the fibers and hopefully keep it off the surface. This is why it's important to turn/flip your mitt and rinse OFTEN to get the dirt out of it.
I use microfiber mitts but many people like using sheepskin mitts.
When it's time to rinse, a steady FLOW of water (not a light rinse) is what Lightninrod was referring to. Take the nozzle off your hose and let it flow over the body panels. The water will tend to "sheet" more this way, and will actually "pull itself" off of the body panels as it rolls off, leaving you with less residual water to come back and dry. |
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| Lightninrod |
quote:
When it's time to rinse, a steady FLOW of water (not a light rinse) is what Lightninrod was referring to. Take the nozzle off your hose and let it flow over the body panels. The water will tend to "sheet" more this way, and will actually "pull itself" off of the body panels as it rolls off, leaving you with less residual water to come back and dry.
That's what I was trying to say!:)
Dan |
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| special-k |
Oh yeah... this has been mentioned elsewhere on this forum a bunch of times, but I feel it's worth repeating since we're on the subject.
The type of soap you use DOES MATTER.
Dawn (and other dishwashing detergents) are designed to be GREASE CUTTERS. They'll strip wax off your car (sometimes that's what you WANT but only in certain circumstances) and are not designed the same way as proper car washing soaps. They won't have the same lubricating properties.
I recommend using a good quality non-detergent (also known as non-stripping) car was soap. There are plenty of good ones out there. Just make sure it's made for washing cars and is by a reputable company (Meguiar's, Eagle One, Mother's, etc.) |
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| bjh |
| Can someone recommend the best wax to use? |
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| njjoe |
quote:
Originally posted by bjh
Can someone recommend the best wax to use?
Sure. Are you looking for a wax or a polish? There is a difference.
The best are... Mothers, Mequiars, Zaino, Klasse (and I am sure a few I forgot to mention). Each has their supporters. Your best bet is to browse the archives to the Detailing section to see what others have to say about each polish/wax.
Personally, I use Zaino. Great stuff. I first heard about it on this forum.
-njjoe |
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| special-k |
... what Joe said.
Have you checked out MOL yet? There they describe the "5-step paint care process":
1) Wash/Dry
2) Clean the paint (not washing)
3) Polish
4) Protect
5) Maintiain
Furthering what Joe said, there are pure polishes and cleaner/polishes. Give this a read: http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/post/15512.aspx
Using a cleaner/polish is steps 2 & 3. Sometimes you'll want a really slick deep glossy finish, so you'll polish again with a pure polish.
Step 4 is protect -- i.e. waxing. There are a lot of different types of wax/surface protectants out there. Some are synthetic, some are naturally-based (carnauba), and many are blends. They'll all accomplish the end result, just in slightly different ways with slightly different looks, feels, etc. It comes down to trying a few things and finding something you like.
Zaino is pretty awesome stuff, but from what I've heard from other members takes a lot of effort and multiple steps. Others here are big fans of the Collinite wax. Naturally over at MOL you'll see them praising Meguiar's products. I have some friends who wouldn't part with their Eagle One or Mother's products for anything. Personally I have a selection of stuff from different brands.
(this line is stolen from someone at MOL): Find something you like and use it often. |
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| special-k |
bjh -- were you ever able to make any progress on those swirls in your black MO?
How about an update? |
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| mgthe3 |
I use the sheep skin mit as well-- I even have them segregated for which car I am washing, the Mo's is always the newest, cleanest.
For our northern brothers and sisters....when it gets dam cold and you want to make an excuse to not wash...
Use warm water in the bucket for washing, you will thank me.
I use what is called a "gentle" spray head on a aluminum wand which literally floods the surface for rinse. It keeps the spray away from you. I measured the output once and it puts out about a gallon in 20 seconds, yet couldn't blast sand off concrete. I get mine at walmart for like $5. I get a good rotary ball valve to place beneath it for turning it on and off one handed, get a brass one, they survive the drops better.
In the warmer months I don't put the pole/wand on it. |
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| special-k |
quote:
Originally posted by mgthe3
For our northern brothers and sisters....when it gets dam cold and you want to make an excuse to not wash...
Use warm water in the bucket for washing, you will thank me.
Do you ever have a problem with the water freezing to the car before you can dry it?
Many people think it doesn't get cold in Reno... but lemme tell ya... it does. Granted, this ain't the great white north, but still.
I wish I had a heated garage / wash bay! :) |
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| manitoba murano |
Warm water in a bucket in the colder months would do about as much as pissing on a forest fire. And YES, the water will freeze to the car long before you get it dried off--if you're warped enough to want to dry off your car.
Typically, my only option is to wait until the weather is no colder than -20C, and take it to the indoor self wash place. For nearly two months of the year the automated wash is actually frozen (or closed so that it doesn't freeze) thanks to the cold air rushing in when the doors open to let the car in and out.
Since it is so cold, and they don't use salt here, the car actually remains fairly clean through the colder months, so it's not really a problem. |
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| mgthe3 |
washing when it is 40 degrees and using warm water isn't what I call pissing on a house fire, ever stuck your hand in 40 degree water? That was kind of a harsh statement...
Oh, and don't think I haven't been in cold climates.... |
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| Gonzo |
| Be carefull fellas, I'm not sure but I am careful about using warm water on a car's paint and glass when its that cold... Brrrrrrr! |
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