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Short answer to your questions on the C1116 code--I don't know. It could be a new problem, an intermittent problem that was already there or perhaps it's a phantom code being thrown by a defective ABS unit. <shrug> You say the hard pedal and brake drag symptoms went away when the ABS unit had no power, correct? Perhaps there's a stuck valve in the ABS pump? If the brake switch and circuit check out fine then that would just be another clue that the root of the problem(s) likely lie with the ABS Control Unit itself.

The Connector E36 is the one attached to the ABS Control Unit (see the top heading in the table you posted). The brake lamp switch is wired directly to the ABS unit (see the wiring diagram in the BCS file of the service manual).
 

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Discussion Starter #22
Thank you!

You say the hard pedal and brake drag symptoms went away when the ABS unit had no power, correct?
Frankly, I did not check the pedal "hardness", just if the brake is holding or not. It seemed that not back then, but because these symptoms went away for a while, your message made me try that again. SO, I removed that ABD fuse again, started up the car and the following lamps came up. Not sure why "Key" was there though...
AfterRemovedFuse_05Sep20.jpg

Just in case I ensured that there is no connection with ABS via Consult III:
Screenshot (29).png

Also, without this fuse, the following DTCs came up:
Screenshot (30).png Screenshot (31).png Screenshot (32).png

The main thing I would like to report is: without ABS fuse the pedal has the same "hardness" as with the fuse. The stop lamp also was behaving in the same fashion (lights only above 17 bar of pressure) and the main thing - the breaks issue is still there! At first it looked like it's not, but then I drove a bit on the parking lot and then backed up a bit, then released the gas pedal and car slowed down until it fully stopped without me pressing the break. And that's withOUT the ABS fuse! Also, when I put it in "parking" and turned off the ignition, few seconds after the breaks released and car moved half an inch (just as I described in my very first post). I also noticed that this problem worsens when break pedal is presses more aggressively: when I lightly use the breaks, it almost does not hold it by itself, but when I push it harder while breaking, I feel it "sticks" more and car slows down more/faster when gas pedal is released (until fully stops). But again - all that is released/reset when ignition is turned off. It means that something is holding the break electronically, i.e. it does not look as something is mechanically stuck... Does it look like the stop lamp is the culprit? Or does it sound like something else may be? Do you guys think ABS can be okay in this case?

Just for your curiosity, when I put the fuse back, I confirmed it's online:
Screenshot (33).png
And the following codes were on:
Screenshot (34).png Screenshot (35).png Screenshot (36).png Screenshot (37).png
As you may see, no ABS codes this time at all. I have cleared everything and now there are no codes, but the issue obviously persists.

Please share your thoughts. Thank you once again for your time guys!
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Also, here is a proof of stop lamp not lighting up when pressing pedal to 17 bars:
Screenshot (47).png

And here it comes on when pressed a bit more:
Screenshot (48).png

It also matches with visual observation of the stop lamp.
 

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Thank you for all the Consult III screenshots! The software looks to be very useful for troubleshooting a difficult problem like yours.

I'm getting more and more tempted to purchase it, even though I don't have any problems at the moment, it just looks too cool not too!

I'm sure I would find some use for it, like maybe seeing what's going on when my RPMs are around 1000 and I experience a low frequency resonance. I'd like to see when the active engine mounts are kicking in, etc.
 

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Also, here is a proof of stop lamp not lighting up when pressing pedal to 17 bars:
View attachment 51922

And here it comes on when pressed a bit more:
View attachment 51923

It also matches with visual observation of the stop lamp.
If the stiff pedal and brake drag is happening when ABS is deactivated then you have to start considering that the root of the problem may be a mechanical issue with the brake hydraulic system. In an earlier post, you said that you noticed the "rims getting hot" after driving the car and these symptoms occurring. Is it only a single wheel or every wheel?
 

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Discussion Starter #26
the root of the problem may be a mechanical issue with the brake hydraulic system
That's what we thought initially, but the fact that everything "gets released" few seconds after the ignition is off, made us think it's something electrical... like ABS. Also, currently, it's not there from the very beginning, it feels like it accumulates - the more I drive and use break pedal, the more it seems to "break" without me pressing the pedal. Interesting thing is that when it just appeared (back in the service) - it was always there, right after the start. First time it fully disappeared was after I removed the fuse for the first time and cleared all the codes...

Also, can it be somehow related to the towing itself? The car was dragged to the tow truck from a parking spot using a winch with ignition on, but not started (due to broken starter motor). It should be okay, but just curious...

In an earlier post, you said that you noticed the "rims getting hot" after driving the car and these symptoms occurring. Is it only a single wheel or every wheel?
Yes, this was only when I drove from the service back home after guy cleared the codes, I was thinking everything was okay, but felt breaking on the road, i.e. when I released gas pedal, even downhill, the car was slowing down as if break pedal was slightly pressed. I had to finish the route (total about 12 miles), so when I got out of the car, I decided to check the rims and some of them were hot. As I remember, two of them, were the hottest (I could not keep my finger on that for more than 3 sec) - they were either left front and right rear or right front and left rear, but I remember it was diagonal. A third one was little bit less hot and fourth was about normal. I did not perform this test since then, coz I imagine brake consumption is enormous... I still have to drive back to the service though when I get maximum I can from the investigation I'm kinda performing... with your help, guys, obviously - thank you for that!
 

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That's what we thought initially, but the fact that everything "gets released" few seconds after the ignition is off, made us think it's something electrical... like ABS. Also, currently, it's not there from the very beginning, it feels like it accumulates - the more I drive and use break pedal, the more it seems to "break" without me pressing the pedal. Interesting thing is that when it just appeared (back in the service) - it was always there, right after the start. First time it fully disappeared was after I removed the fuse for the first time and cleared all the codes...

Also, can it be somehow related to the towing itself? The car was dragged to the tow truck from a parking spot using a winch with ignition on, but not started (due to broken starter motor). It should be okay, but just curious...

Yes, this was only when I drove from the service back home after guy cleared the codes, I was thinking everything was okay, but felt breaking on the road, i.e. when I released gas pedal, even downhill, the car was slowing down as if break pedal was slightly pressed. I had to finish the route (total about 12 miles), so when I got out of the car, I decided to check the rims and some of them were hot. As I remember, two of them, were the hottest (I could not keep my finger on that for more than 3 sec) - they were either left front and right rear or right front and left rear, but I remember it was diagonal. A third one was little bit less hot and fourth was about normal. I did not perform this test since then, coz I imagine brake consumption is enormous... I still have to drive back to the service though when I get maximum I can from the investigation I'm kinda performing... with your help, guys, obviously - thank you for that!
I doubt the winch dragging while the car was being towed away did anything to the brake system.

If pressure in the brake system when you press the pedal doesn't immediately get released when you take your foot off the brake then this could be an indicator of a problem in the hydraulic system. If there's physical damage or a blockage in one or more of the lines then that could inhibit the flow of brake fluid back to the master cylinder which would cause pressure to start to build up in the part of the system after the damage/blockage as the brakes are used. A hydraulic problem could even be inside the ABS unit itself since fluid is routed from the master cylinder to the ABS unit before being diverted to each of the wheels. In fact, there are only two brake lines feeding the ABS unit from the master cylinder and I believe these two lines each feed one front wheel and one rear wheel diagonally as this is how many modern brake systems work.

Since you say this whole problem began after the starter was replaced, I would suggest at the very least to inspect the steel brake lines inside the engine compartment running along the frame and firewall for any signs of physical damage (e.g. dents or kinks) in case the mechanic was careless when removing the airbox etc. to get to the starter. If you don't find anything out of the ordinary then I would do a brake bleed procedure at each wheel to observe how the fluid is coming out (...you'll need a helper and some fresh brake fluid to replenish the master cylinder as you go along). If you find a specific wheel shows very slow drainage then take a closer look at the brake lines for that wheel. This would at least confirm which lines are at issue if there is a problem with the lines themselves.
 

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That's what we thought initially, but the fact that everything "gets released" few seconds after the ignition is off, made us think it's something electrical... like ABS. Also, currently, it's not there from the very beginning, it feels like it accumulates - the more I drive and use break pedal, the more it seems to "break" without me pressing the pedal. Interesting thing is that when it just appeared (back in the service) - it was always there, right after the start. First time it fully disappeared was after I removed the fuse for the first time and cleared all the codes...

Also, can it be somehow related to the towing itself? The car was dragged to the tow truck from a parking spot using a winch with ignition on, but not started (due to broken starter motor). It should be okay, but just curious...


Yes, this was only when I drove from the service back home after guy cleared the codes, I was thinking everything was okay, but felt breaking on the road, i.e. when I released gas pedal, even downhill, the car was slowing down as if break pedal was slightly pressed. I had to finish the route (total about 12 miles), so when I got out of the car, I decided to check the rims and some of them were hot. As I remember, two of them, were the hottest (I could not keep my finger on that for more than 3 sec) - they were either left front and right rear or right front and left rear, but I remember it was diagonal. A third one was little bit less hot and fourth was about normal. I did not perform this test since then, coz I imagine brake consumption is enormous... I still have to drive back to the service though when I get maximum I can from the investigation I'm kinda performing... with your help, guys, obviously - thank you for that!
Have you been to a Nissan dealer to have them do an official diagnostic? I know you have the Consult III software, just not sure if it's a true fully functioning copy.

How do you know that it's actually the ABS unit itself and not the main CPU (Which sends info to the ABS unit.) which is causing the brake lockup issue? Just unplugging the ABS unit really doesn't answer that question. The ABS unit is always going to go into default mode when you do that. From your description of individual brake heating, it seems the system is running in a normal diagonal braking pattern, with excessive pressure to one set, pointing to a pressure issue in the ABS unit.

On third gen Murano's, the ABS unit is also used for traction control, by individually applying braking pressure to the spinning wheel only. Think of the ABS unit as having 4 little master brake cylinders, one for each wheel. The main CPU tells the ABS unit which cylinder to apply according to feedback from each wheel. Under normal stopping conditions, the CPU lets the ABS unit stop the car pretty much like pre-ABS setups, only interceding if wheel slippage of any kind is detected. Not sure if the 2nd Gen is the same, but I think it is.

If you've notice any brake fluid coming from the ABS unit, even a "wet" look any where on it, then you might have an internal leak which might be coming in contact with the ABS circuit board, causing a shorting condition.

I've been reading up on the ABS boxes and from what I'm reading, after replacing the brake light switch, it would seem that one or more of the pressure sensors in the ABS unit got fried somehow and is responding incorrectly, if it's not the main CPU itself causing the issue. I would stop messing around, buy a certified used ABS unit, have it installed and pressure flush the braking system, using DOT4 brake fluid.

Good luck.

I know that this all started with a starter change, but stranger things have happened when working on the newer cars.

Have a good day.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Have you been to a Nissan dealer to have them do an official diagnostic? I know you have the Consult III software, just not sure if it's a true fully functioning copy.
No, because I was told by the general manager of a closest official dealership to "not come here anymore, because your car is old" (that's a whole different story happened a year ago during they performing this breaking fluid recall - they did not like it was free of charge). But believe it or not, yesterday I just discussed this with the guy who changed the starter motor. I'll just pay them for diagnostic time, hopefully they have more sophisticated computers and software... I hope they pinpoint the issue for sure.

How do you know that it's actually the ABS unit itself and not the main CPU (Which sends info to the ABS unit.) which is causing the brake lockup issue? Just unplugging the ABS unit really doesn't answer that question.
Well, I've been reading that whenever ABS is malfunctioning (ABS lamp comes up) or when it's unplugged (like without a fuse), breaking system behaves as if there is no ABS. So I thought if without ABS I can feel that the car is breaking without me applying the breaks, it should not be ABS fault. That was my thinking...

The ABS unit is always going to go into default mode when you do that.
I thought this "default mode" is actually "default mode for breaking system", i.e. "no ABS at all".

From your description of individual brake heating, it seems the system is running in a normal diagonal braking pattern, with excessive pressure to one set, pointing to a pressure issue in the ABS unit.
But if that's the reason, I'm wondering how this can be happening when ABS unit is powerless?

If you've notice any brake fluid coming from the ABS unit
Nope, it's dry, I have inspected it thoroughly (as much as it's possible visually):
IMG_3932.JPG

I would stop messing around, buy a certified used ABS unit, have it installed and pressure flush the braking system, using DOT4 brake fluid.
"certified used" - where can I find those? I'm planning buying on ebay, but I guess there it's like a lottery... There is no way to test the unit before installing... Do you have any suggestions?

Good luck.
Thank you for your help!
 

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PaulDay said:
From your description of individual brake heating, it seems the system is running in a normal diagonal braking pattern, with excessive pressure to one set, pointing to a pressure issue in the ABS unit.
But if that's the reason, I'm wondering how this can be happening when ABS unit is powerless?

I'm thinking that you have a bad seal in the ABS unit that's causing a binding situation. The flushing that was performed could have caused debris to settle in the ABS, being the cause now. It's there without any power, and seems to get worse when plugged in, when the ABS unit is playing a more active role.

I've never had to look into buying an ABS unit. I would price new, looking to buy from the cheapest internet Nissan dealer, verse used from a recycler. I have found up to a 50% difference in price on some items from internet Nissan dealers, so it's worth a search. Depending on how long you plan on keeping the car should dictate your choice.

I would be weary of any off-shore item, if going that route. You should be able to locate one from a US source on EBay. Use paypal or some other form of purchase that will refund your money if you run into any trouble with the delivered item.

Good luck.

Have a good day.
 
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If the ABS unit is disconnected then the car just has regular hydraulic brakes (e.g. circa 20+ years ago). I think the issue is in the hydraulic system and probably a defect inside the ABS control unit (e.g. clogged/stuck valve etc.) I took a look at the cost of these things and brand new they're ~$1,500+ while used units on eBay seem to run around $100 or so give or take, but one would have to consider that parts on eBay usually come from wrecked cars... What I was trying to get at in my last post is to at least try to rule out some other possibilities before putting in a new (or used) ABS unit because it would really suck to install it, start the car and then find the problem is still there.

J-Pro, after doing some more research on CONSULT III, I'm all but certain it's not authentic in that it didn't come from Nissan (or actually Bosch who makes their diagnostic equipment). The real deal is sold on a subscription basis for $1,250/year (see here). Further research on NASTF found that pretty much all the auto manufacturers use these subscription sales models for their diagnostic software. Nevertheless, the Chinese are pretty good at copying other people's stuff and reselling it at bargain prices so my guess is that you probably have a knock-off of one of the real CONSULT III software releases and given the price it's a steal.

One final thing I was thinking of was your scan software seems to confirm the ABS pressure sensor is working despite the code so since you say the problem gets worse the more the brakes are used, I was going to suggest watching the pressure sensor reading while trying to recreate the problem. That is, sit in the car while the engine is idling (ABS connected) and pump the brake pedal vigorously for 20-30 seconds and then do a series of single brake pumps a few seconds apart. The pressure reading should drop to 0 nearly instantaneously every time you take your foot off the brake so what you would be looking for is some kind of lag or slower drop down to 0 when the pedal is released. If you see something like that then I think it's another piece of evidence for a hydraulic problem.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
What I was trying to get at in my last post is to at least try to rule out some other possibilities before putting in a new (or used) ABS unit because it would really suck to install it, start the car and then find the problem is still there.
Right, and I got your point - that's exactly why I did this. Thank you!

J-Pro, after doing some more research on CONSULT III, I'm all but certain it's not authentic in that it didn't come from Nissan (or actually Bosch who makes their diagnostic equipment). The real deal is sold on a subscription basis for $1,250/year (see here).
What you have there is Consult III Plus - that's a newer version for newer cars. I saw this version as well, it was significantly more expensive. There is another tab that says "Consult III", it also says "Support and updates for C-III software ended in 2010". Also, keep in mind that it's usually being sold with a laptop and security card (needed for ECU re-programming I guess), while what I bought - was just the tool and the software - I had my own laptop with Windows XP where I installed it myself - so it saved some money.

your scan software seems to confirm the ABS pressure sensor is working despite the code
Exactly! I was surprised to see it even in the very beginning! I could not understand how can it be that it shows readings while its circuit failed...

I was going to suggest watching the pressure sensor reading while trying to recreate the problem. That is, sit in the car while the engine is idling (ABS connected) and pump the brake pedal vigorously for 20-30 seconds and then do a series of single brake pumps a few seconds apart. The pressure reading should drop to 0 nearly instantaneously every time you take your foot off the brake so what you would be looking for is some kind of lag or slower drop down to 0 when the pedal is released. If you see something like that then I think it's another piece of evidence for a hydraulic problem.
I did similar things several times. Not exactly this, but just depressing and releasing, slow and fast - every time I release, pressure sensor shows 0. Every time I just touch it, it properly shows 1 or 2 bars. So that sensor is perfectly fine!
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Guys, just to let you know - my car is back to normal :)

I went to official dealership for that diagnostics and described all the symptoms. Mechanic was VERY knowledgeable and explained all very well. Here is the verdict:
verdict.png


Now I remember that AAA technician was checking the break pedal whenI called him for the battery service. He said it's not battery, but sometimes stop switch may need some adjustments and that may cause car not to start. So looks like he did "adjust" something without putting it back... And it caused such a headache! I imagine how mad would I be if I replaced the ABS unit and found the culprit afterwards! I'm wondering if I need to call AAA and say anything...

The service also suggested to replace vacuum booster out of safety concerns, so that if engine stalls I could use the breaks. But I think it's just too expensive and I guess it was like that for a long time. Here are full recommendations if you guys are interested:
addSvc.jpg

And here is the price, just FYI :)
price.png


Anyway, right now I have my car in the same condition it was before - the pedal feels much softer (as before) and there is no breaking happening.

THANK YOU guys very much for your inputs. I really appreciate the time you spent trying to help me. It was very valuable and actually helped! I wish you guys all the best, please stay safe!
 

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Guys, just to let you know - my car is back to normal :)

I went to official dealership for that diagnostics and described all the symptoms. Mechanic was VERY knowledgeable and explained all very well. Here is the verdict:
View attachment 51988

Now I remember that AAA technician was checking the break pedal whenI called him for the battery service. He said it's not battery, but sometimes stop switch may need some adjustments and that may cause car not to start. So looks like he did "adjust" something without putting it back... And it caused such a headache! I imagine how mad would I be if I replaced the ABS unit and found the culprit afterwards! I'm wondering if I need to call AAA and say anything...

The service also suggested to replace vacuum booster out of safety concerns, so that if engine stalls I could use the breaks. But I think it's just too expensive and I guess it was like that for a long time. Here are full recommendations if you guys are interested:


And here is the price, just FYI :)


Anyway, right now I have my car in the same condition it was before - the pedal feels much softer (as before) and there is no breaking happening.

THANK YOU guys very much for your inputs. I really appreciate the time you spent trying to help me. It was very valuable and actually helped! I wish you guys all the best, please stay safe!
Thank you for coming back and reporting what ended up being the problem. A tow truck driver should not be doing anything to your car except trying to jump start it or tow it. On a side note, I thought you double-checked the brake switch when PaulDay suggested it? Nevertheless, it's good to hear that it was a simple fix. Also, that was an honest tech who looked at your car--a lot of places would have replaced the brake switch (and charged you) by default after finding that it was simply misaligned.
 
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