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Installed ground wires!
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Are you saying that the acceleration is better? Great.
Wonder why.
Is the radio reception any better. I have a strange thing that happened to me. the radio was great when I got the car, One week later I took it in to have the chrome wheels and a billet grill installed and now the radio is much less sensitive? Wonder why.
Wonder why.
Is the radio reception any better. I have a strange thing that happened to me. the radio was great when I got the car, One week later I took it in to have the chrome wheels and a billet grill installed and now the radio is much less sensitive? Wonder why.
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How is the radio
How is the radio. My radio was great the day I got the MO. 4 days later it took in in for chrome wheel and a billet grill. Now the radio is much less sensitive anybody know why?
What in grounding better would make more horsepower?
How is the radio. My radio was great the day I got the MO. 4 days later it took in in for chrome wheel and a billet grill. Now the radio is much less sensitive anybody know why?
What in grounding better would make more horsepower?
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I'm sorry b0xdesigns, but I've seen the grounding kits before and for it to make that much of a difference to your Murano, means there was something wrong with it before you put the kit in.
Especially to have an increase in engine torque. If they were really affecting the ignition system that way, then you would actually lose peak voltage on the spark, due to the length of the wires (inductance), as well as group delay affecting the shape of the edges.
If they were truly becoming part of the ignition system, your AM radio should be totally unusable due to ignition noise from those long ground wires. They are no longer at ground potential at the spark frequencies resulting from the fast ignition impulse, the further you travel from the ground point, so they would become effective RF radiators. Marconi would be proud of the design, however.
I'm happy the kit fixed the problem, though!
What I'm trying to figure out, is why when I merged the two threads, the pictures aren't showing up. I'll send a note to the admin on this, as this happened in another part of the forum.
Especially to have an increase in engine torque. If they were really affecting the ignition system that way, then you would actually lose peak voltage on the spark, due to the length of the wires (inductance), as well as group delay affecting the shape of the edges.
If they were truly becoming part of the ignition system, your AM radio should be totally unusable due to ignition noise from those long ground wires. They are no longer at ground potential at the spark frequencies resulting from the fast ignition impulse, the further you travel from the ground point, so they would become effective RF radiators. Marconi would be proud of the design, however.
I'm happy the kit fixed the problem, though!
What I'm trying to figure out, is why when I merged the two threads, the pictures aren't showing up. I'll send a note to the admin on this, as this happened in another part of the forum.
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thanks for taking my thread outta the gen diss. i was just about to do that
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Sigh... You know the basic underlying concept of the kit, is based on a good practice of grounding everything to a central point. And this is where it starts on the marketing of them.
However, you have to treat the ignition system a bit differently. Due to the fast rise times of the pulses, it's important to keep the high voltage spark circuit as short as possible. So a separate coil for each cylinder mounted close to the spark plug means the path is short through the wire to the plug and then the return path is through the head. So a ground wire shouldn't impact this energy side of the ignition at all, as it's an isolated circuit. (more or less, other than impedance effects through the coil to the primary) The shorter, the better to make sure the rise time of the pulse is as steep as possible and current once the arc is drawn, is the maximum due to the lowest impedance possible at the frequencies that make up the pulse.
Yet at the same time, the coil leads these days are resistor type, to slow this pulse edge down, so I suppose the trade off is keeping the noise down. Slowing this down, removes the higher frequency energy to reduce the chance of ignition noise. The shorter path of the coil being close to the plug, would also reduce this noise. (It also means the coil can recover in time for the next ignition pulse at high rpm, better, which is another reason to have a coil on each plug.)
So how would the ground wire affect this? It shouldn't... On the primary side of the coil, there should be already be a substantial ground path through the same ground wire that's used to allow the starter current needed to start the engine.
I'm just trying to work this through in my head, yet again... I've seen these kits before and every time I go through this, I've yet to find anyone who can truly explain why one of these kits would work, if the automobile is already properly designed. I have good confidence in Nissan's design, especially the engine and it's systems, as it's very well put together.
Any EE's with RF experience, or Physicists want to comment on this? I love being proved wrong, as it usually means I've learned something in the process.
b0xdesigns, I apologise if my first comments came off as disrespectful, I must admit, I did overreact, due to previous visits with those grounding kits, and my opinion of them...
In the meantime, I'm going to send a note to the Admin about the pictures... It's annoying when they give links instead of showing up. This happened in the Nav section too, with Generator's post and we got that fixed.
However, you have to treat the ignition system a bit differently. Due to the fast rise times of the pulses, it's important to keep the high voltage spark circuit as short as possible. So a separate coil for each cylinder mounted close to the spark plug means the path is short through the wire to the plug and then the return path is through the head. So a ground wire shouldn't impact this energy side of the ignition at all, as it's an isolated circuit. (more or less, other than impedance effects through the coil to the primary) The shorter, the better to make sure the rise time of the pulse is as steep as possible and current once the arc is drawn, is the maximum due to the lowest impedance possible at the frequencies that make up the pulse.
Yet at the same time, the coil leads these days are resistor type, to slow this pulse edge down, so I suppose the trade off is keeping the noise down. Slowing this down, removes the higher frequency energy to reduce the chance of ignition noise. The shorter path of the coil being close to the plug, would also reduce this noise. (It also means the coil can recover in time for the next ignition pulse at high rpm, better, which is another reason to have a coil on each plug.)
So how would the ground wire affect this? It shouldn't... On the primary side of the coil, there should be already be a substantial ground path through the same ground wire that's used to allow the starter current needed to start the engine.
I'm just trying to work this through in my head, yet again... I've seen these kits before and every time I go through this, I've yet to find anyone who can truly explain why one of these kits would work, if the automobile is already properly designed. I have good confidence in Nissan's design, especially the engine and it's systems, as it's very well put together.
Any EE's with RF experience, or Physicists want to comment on this? I love being proved wrong, as it usually means I've learned something in the process.
b0xdesigns, I apologise if my first comments came off as disrespectful, I must admit, I did overreact, due to previous visits with those grounding kits, and my opinion of them...
In the meantime, I'm going to send a note to the Admin about the pictures... It's annoying when they give links instead of showing up. This happened in the Nav section too, with Generator's post and we got that fixed.
IMHO: The major grounding issue on modern vehicles is the at the unibody is painted prior to wiring installation. Therefore ground wires are bolted to painted lugs on the body and do not always make a perfect contact. Also, they may not be tight. If the grounds are tight and make good contact, the extra grounding shound not be necessary.
It seems like these aftermarket grounding schemes originated with 1. Racing vehicles which may not have had metal bodies.
2. The stereo affectionados who had to have erery milliwatt of power perfectly transmitted to their speakers.
I don't think any issue is present under the hood, where the engine is connected directly to the battery by a large diameter copper wire (unlike most of the other components, which depend on a body ground.
It seems like these aftermarket grounding schemes originated with 1. Racing vehicles which may not have had metal bodies.
2. The stereo affectionados who had to have erery milliwatt of power perfectly transmitted to their speakers.
I don't think any issue is present under the hood, where the engine is connected directly to the battery by a large diameter copper wire (unlike most of the other components, which depend on a body ground.
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"stereo affectionados" and "audiophiles"...
Now there's a couple of expressions that will make me smile. There's probably 1 person out of at least 10-20 if not 50, in those groups that truly know what they're talking about...
Car Audio is an area that suffers badly from "eye candy" being more important than actual audio quality. I have nothing against the glitter and the lights, but when it sounds bad and looks are the primary concern, I really scratch my head! I have nothing against dressing up a good installation and making it look sharp, but wow! is there a lot of crap out there!
Oh, oh, here's one of my favourite expressions in audio... "Oxygen Free Copper" I love that one almost as much as putting "Billet" in front of something. I work in an environment where signals need to be flat and accurate from DC to 70 GHz. (That's 70,000,000,000 cycles per second for the non-techies.) It's necessary to be able to see signal levels that are only slightly above the noise floor of the universe and an instrument to measure it can cost $160,000. Say "Oxygen Free Copper" to people that work in that extremely demanding environment, and you'll get chuckles and smiles around the table.
So when I see something that makes no engineering sense, or takes one fundamental concept and exaggerates it, I must admit I'm a little frustrated for the people that spend good money on the products.
As far as grounding in the Murano, I'm doubtful that there would be any problems, but considering the fact that they didn't seem to care on a few of them, enough to make the FM antenna work properly by ensuring proper grounding, it's not out of the question that adding a second ground system could overcome a poor ground somewhere.
Although, I'm very doubtful that it would be on the engine.
IMHO. Yeah, that's an expression I should preface these rants with!
Now there's a couple of expressions that will make me smile. There's probably 1 person out of at least 10-20 if not 50, in those groups that truly know what they're talking about...
Car Audio is an area that suffers badly from "eye candy" being more important than actual audio quality. I have nothing against the glitter and the lights, but when it sounds bad and looks are the primary concern, I really scratch my head! I have nothing against dressing up a good installation and making it look sharp, but wow! is there a lot of crap out there!
Oh, oh, here's one of my favourite expressions in audio... "Oxygen Free Copper" I love that one almost as much as putting "Billet" in front of something. I work in an environment where signals need to be flat and accurate from DC to 70 GHz. (That's 70,000,000,000 cycles per second for the non-techies.) It's necessary to be able to see signal levels that are only slightly above the noise floor of the universe and an instrument to measure it can cost $160,000. Say "Oxygen Free Copper" to people that work in that extremely demanding environment, and you'll get chuckles and smiles around the table.
So when I see something that makes no engineering sense, or takes one fundamental concept and exaggerates it, I must admit I'm a little frustrated for the people that spend good money on the products.
As far as grounding in the Murano, I'm doubtful that there would be any problems, but considering the fact that they didn't seem to care on a few of them, enough to make the FM antenna work properly by ensuring proper grounding, it's not out of the question that adding a second ground system could overcome a poor ground somewhere.
Although, I'm very doubtful that it would be on the engine.
IMHO. Yeah, that's an expression I should preface these rants with!
ok jaak here's one for ya
hehe
I used Burroughs mainframe buss wire for my DC into my amps in a travel trailer I once had....it was 300 conductor silver plated copper. It had come out of a bank where I was a site field engineer for another company and the unisys engineer was glad to slip me about 200 feet.
It worked GREAT.
I had put the O-scope on my DC supply in the trailer and found it horribly wavy and decided just to go straight from the battery, that cured it. I had 300 watt surround sound in the camper--it was niiiize.
I still have a bunch of it around if anyone in Atlanta would like some.
:2:
hehe
I used Burroughs mainframe buss wire for my DC into my amps in a travel trailer I once had....it was 300 conductor silver plated copper. It had come out of a bank where I was a site field engineer for another company and the unisys engineer was glad to slip me about 200 feet.
It worked GREAT.
I had put the O-scope on my DC supply in the trailer and found it horribly wavy and decided just to go straight from the battery, that cured it. I had 300 watt surround sound in the camper--it was niiiize.
I still have a bunch of it around if anyone in Atlanta would like some.
:2:
At one time I worked for a small company in New Orleans (Fisher Labs) and we were the warranty station for 24 (I believe) different stereo and accessory manufacturers. This was a long time ago and the names are no doubt mostly gone now. Guys like Advent, Klipsh, MacIntosh, Dual, etc.
I was a very highly qualified tech and I had a stereo system to die for. I had 18" woofers in an 800 sq ft Apartment (Altec Lansing Voice of the Theaters with mid range horns and electrostatic tweets)
One day a girl I had at the apartment asked me a question about the music.
I didn't know.
She asked me some more questions and I didn't know.
Regardless of what happened after that, I realized that I had never listened to the music.
I had gotten very good at listening for and identifying different amounts of Harmonic Distortion etc, but I had forgotten to listen to the music.
I buy "cheap" stuff today (Yamaha RX-V870 Rcvr and Bose Speakers) and I listen to the music.
It's very nice.
I've gotten in that mode so much these days that I think the standard Bose system on the Murano is just fine.
Homer
I was a very highly qualified tech and I had a stereo system to die for. I had 18" woofers in an 800 sq ft Apartment (Altec Lansing Voice of the Theaters with mid range horns and electrostatic tweets)
One day a girl I had at the apartment asked me a question about the music.
I didn't know.
She asked me some more questions and I didn't know.
Regardless of what happened after that, I realized that I had never listened to the music.
I had gotten very good at listening for and identifying different amounts of Harmonic Distortion etc, but I had forgotten to listen to the music.
I buy "cheap" stuff today (Yamaha RX-V870 Rcvr and Bose Speakers) and I listen to the music.
It's very nice.
I've gotten in that mode so much these days that I think the standard Bose system on the Murano is just fine.
Homer
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Homer, were the ones that were about 5 1/2 feet tall, about 30 inches wide, and about as deep?hfelknor said:
I went to a party in 1970 at a guys rented house on a college campus where he had a system with a pair of Voice of the theater speakers. To this day, I still remember the incredible sound that came from those speakers, it was incredible!
This was the same guy who had a 70 Nova with a 454 in it that would pull wheelies at will.
His old man was a pretty high powered lawyer who made sure his kid had the best of every thing. Fun guy to hang around with!
Yep, that wuz them!
There was something about them.......
Free and easy.........lifelike.............
Even at low volume, when you stood in front of them your pants moved. (From the air moved by the woofs)
There were so many funny things associated with them.
When I had a FM station on them one time and a new GF dropped by, she heard the announcer talking and went into the other room to see who was in the living room.
One Time I hauled them out on my balcony there in New Orleans.
I lived in, to put it politly, a "mixed race" neighborhood.
I put a new group on the TT.
The righteous Brothers.
My stock went up about 100% in that neghborhood.
I assume that they eventualy found out that the boys were white.......
Ah, back in the day..............
Homer
As to ground wires, etc
Thanks but no thanks.
Unless there is a problem, I don't believe in them.
I will have to admit tho, that many moons ago, i was one of the early adopters of the then advanced technology Capacitive Discharge ignition systems.
There was something about them.......
Free and easy.........lifelike.............
Even at low volume, when you stood in front of them your pants moved. (From the air moved by the woofs)
There were so many funny things associated with them.
When I had a FM station on them one time and a new GF dropped by, she heard the announcer talking and went into the other room to see who was in the living room.
One Time I hauled them out on my balcony there in New Orleans.
I lived in, to put it politly, a "mixed race" neighborhood.
I put a new group on the TT.
The righteous Brothers.
My stock went up about 100% in that neghborhood.
I assume that they eventualy found out that the boys were white.......
Ah, back in the day..............
Homer
As to ground wires, etc
Thanks but no thanks.
Unless there is a problem, I don't believe in them.
I will have to admit tho, that many moons ago, i was one of the early adopters of the then advanced technology Capacitive Discharge ignition systems.
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Cool Stories...
Going to the trailer, the I2R (can't do a proper squared on this) losses are so great for a 12 V system, that you would want to ensure you had as little loss as possible. I'd be interested to know why they spec'd silver plated wire, as at RF frequencies there's a skin effect for the current, so it would be especially good.
ekaxel, I agree with you on "afficianado, afficionado?" as that usually means "warning, mouth bigger than knowledge". Funny, I was thinking, which way is it spelled, then realised, I don't care! I don't really plan on using the word anyway as I don't have much of a use for it. (Boy, jaak's got an attitude on today!)
Homer, to me, 18's are woofers. So are 15's. 12's are heading towards mids, but still OK as woofers and 10's are mids or woofers for bookshelf speakers if you are fine with not hearing the bottom end.
SubWoofer? Well that's sub, as in subaudible, right? So the 18's would work nice there... So you can feel the low end.
So when I look at surround sound systems in stores and see 8-10 " "subwoofers" I can't help but think some marketing people have gone and yet again corrupted the meanings of these terms to help sell product.
So I do a lot of this... when in audio stores!
But like you, Homer, now I just listen. I've got a Yamaha receiver and Mission speakers that are adequate and don't consume a lot of space. I'm quite happy with them, even though I can pick them apart if I want. The powered woofer that they call a Subwoofer, is not bad... (Peer pressure, I call it a sub too so other people know what I'm talking about! )
Haven't seen any bad grounds on my Murano (so far) and I'd probably fix the stock system, if I discovered an issue. The wire kit is another way of dealing with it, in that it would be the shotgun approach instead of the repair and refinement approach. That in itself, can be quite acceptable, when you weigh time costs.
Now, I like what ESEMES did to his G35!
Going to the trailer, the I2R (can't do a proper squared on this) losses are so great for a 12 V system, that you would want to ensure you had as little loss as possible. I'd be interested to know why they spec'd silver plated wire, as at RF frequencies there's a skin effect for the current, so it would be especially good.
ekaxel, I agree with you on "afficianado, afficionado?" as that usually means "warning, mouth bigger than knowledge". Funny, I was thinking, which way is it spelled, then realised, I don't care! I don't really plan on using the word anyway as I don't have much of a use for it. (Boy, jaak's got an attitude on today!)
Homer, to me, 18's are woofers. So are 15's. 12's are heading towards mids, but still OK as woofers and 10's are mids or woofers for bookshelf speakers if you are fine with not hearing the bottom end.
SubWoofer? Well that's sub, as in subaudible, right? So the 18's would work nice there... So you can feel the low end.
So when I look at surround sound systems in stores and see 8-10 " "subwoofers" I can't help but think some marketing people have gone and yet again corrupted the meanings of these terms to help sell product.
So I do a lot of this...
when in audio stores!But like you, Homer, now I just listen. I've got a Yamaha receiver and Mission speakers that are adequate and don't consume a lot of space. I'm quite happy with them, even though I can pick them apart if I want. The powered woofer that they call a Subwoofer, is not bad... (Peer pressure, I call it a sub too so other people know what I'm talking about!
)Haven't seen any bad grounds on my Murano (so far) and I'd probably fix the stock system, if I discovered an issue. The wire kit is another way of dealing with it, in that it would be the shotgun approach instead of the repair and refinement approach. That in itself, can be quite acceptable, when you weigh time costs.
Now, I like what ESEMES did to his G35!
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