Remote Starter
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Try another dealer. I was at one today that had all the specs for the murano.
Their primary brand was Viper which I believe, is one of many brands made by the same company, DEI.
Their primary brand was Viper which I believe, is one of many brands made by the same company, DEI.
I will be having an Astroflex 4204 installed. Check out some of the new models available. You can now get 2 way remote starters which will actually confirm the status of your vehicle on the remote. Advertised reception distance is 2000' Click on "4204" http://www.astrostart.com/ENGLISH/FramesPRODUCTS.HTM
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293 Posts
On a related question (since you guys have either got it installed, or considered it..)
what about the issue of theft.. since the "chip" is located with the remote starter (remove it from the key and put is near the steering column ), and is used so the car can be started without a key. then the vehicle could be "more easily" hotwired (stolen) then one that does not have a remote starter.
Does this "impact" the insurance, since the "rating" is based on the fact that there is a built in theft deterrant system (which you have now bypassed..)
??
what about the issue of theft.. since the "chip" is located with the remote starter (remove it from the key and put is near the steering column ), and is used so the car can be started without a key. then the vehicle could be "more easily" hotwired (stolen) then one that does not have a remote starter.
Does this "impact" the insurance, since the "rating" is based on the fact that there is a built in theft deterrant system (which you have now bypassed..)
??
Mine is not affected....The chip is in the steering column, but it only activates when I go to start the vehicle with the remote. My remote start also has a starter kill, which will not allow the vehicle to be driven without the key in the ignition, and if the car in started via the remote start it must be unlocked with the same remote or the car will turn itself off.....
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Milgrad: consider this
1) The person slim jim's the doro open.
2) uses a screw driver on the ignition switch and manges to be able to force it to turn.
3) The chip is in the steering column, the the "built" in prevention is bypassed
and the car starts.
the "remote starter" thinks there is a key in the ignition since the tumber is turning.. so it bypasses all the security..
1) The person slim jim's the doro open.
2) uses a screw driver on the ignition switch and manges to be able to force it to turn.
3) The chip is in the steering column, the the "built" in prevention is bypassed
and the car starts.
the "remote starter" thinks there is a key in the ignition since the tumber is turning.. so it bypasses all the security..
The module I had installed with the chip only activates with the remote start. Even if they put a screw driver in it would not start. The module is powered by the remote start computer and will not release the signal with the remote start... I have had remote starts in all my vehicles and never had an issue....If something would happen, that is what insurance is for....
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Maybe Im a bit confused. but I thought the chip in the key was passive.. eg, then the car started, it sent out a signal, and the key chip responds. there is no "external" control to control when the key responds. (similair to rfid tags that can be powered by the signal itself)
is this not how it works???
eg. in the "Bottom" of my key is a little 3x7 mm "slot" which when I open it up, has a "solid state" chip (black slab of the same material computer chips are made of..)
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there is no way to "stop" if from sending a response signal to the car when it asks for it (when you turn the key)
The way I understand it, is that once you place the chip anywhere near the vehicle then you ahve defeated the protection, and the remote starter will not provide any thing to replace it (since it cannot detect the difference from a key, and forcing the tumbler to turn with a screwdriver..)
is this not how it works???
eg. in the "Bottom" of my key is a little 3x7 mm "slot" which when I open it up, has a "solid state" chip (black slab of the same material computer chips are made of..)
there is no way to "stop" if from sending a response signal to the car when it asks for it (when you turn the key)
The way I understand it, is that once you place the chip anywhere near the vehicle then you ahve defeated the protection, and the remote starter will not provide any thing to replace it (since it cannot detect the difference from a key, and forcing the tumbler to turn with a screwdriver..)
I am by now means an expert on how they actually work but lets consider about 60% of all cars in the Montreal, Canada area have remote starters. If it really did disable the security system like suggested, would'nt you think the insurance companies would ask if you had one. I have used remote starters for the last 18 years and have never been asked this question from the insurance. They do ask if you have a security device (ignition cutoff) and most of the time if you do not, they will make you install one or no insurance. Muranos around here, need to have a sat tracking system installed also.
The chip may be passive but I don't think it can be just anywhere near the vehicle to be able to start it. That is, I don't think it's an RF signal. I have three keys for my Murano. Two have the chip and one doesn't. The one that doesn't will turn the engine over but it doesn't start. I've had both keys on a key ring and tried to start the car with the wrong one and it wouldn't start. The key with the chip must actually be in contact with the ignition system to work.
I'm thinking that if one of my keys that has the chip is used in the bypass for the remote starter then in theory I could use my non-chip key to start the car because the system would receive a signal from the chip in the bypass (which is physically a part of the ignition system now). Therefore, any tool that could be used to turn the ignition switch could start the car.
Unless the computer is smart enough to know which way the car is being started... so if it's the remote that's starting it, the system expects a signal from the remote. If a key in the ignition switch is starting the car, then the signal is expected from there (mere speculation).
I'm thinking that if one of my keys that has the chip is used in the bypass for the remote starter then in theory I could use my non-chip key to start the car because the system would receive a signal from the chip in the bypass (which is physically a part of the ignition system now). Therefore, any tool that could be used to turn the ignition switch could start the car.
Unless the computer is smart enough to know which way the car is being started... so if it's the remote that's starting it, the system expects a signal from the remote. If a key in the ignition switch is starting the car, then the signal is expected from there (mere speculation).
db, you are right on the money.
The chip is passive and it does operate by rf and the antenna/amplifier surrounds the ignition switch. All of these aftermarket remote starter systems essentially bypass NVIS/NATS, because you have to tape a key or the chip within receiving distance of the antenna.
NVIS: Nissan Vehicle Immobilizer System
NATS: Nissan Anti Theft System
NVIS/NATS communicates with the BCM and ECM via CAN. So, unless someone makes a remote starter system that communicate via CAN and emulate NVIS or tie into an unknown/unnamed feature not mentioned in the SM, you have to have the chip near the antenna for the ignition to work.
Also, the chips in the keys are registered using the $4K Consult-II to the BCM.
Extra keys are $40.62. http://www.courtesyparts.com/murano/keys.html
The chip is passive and it does operate by rf and the antenna/amplifier surrounds the ignition switch. All of these aftermarket remote starter systems essentially bypass NVIS/NATS, because you have to tape a key or the chip within receiving distance of the antenna.
NVIS: Nissan Vehicle Immobilizer System
NATS: Nissan Anti Theft System
NVIS/NATS communicates with the BCM and ECM via CAN. So, unless someone makes a remote starter system that communicate via CAN and emulate NVIS or tie into an unknown/unnamed feature not mentioned in the SM, you have to have the chip near the antenna for the ignition to work.
Also, the chips in the keys are registered using the $4K Consult-II to the BCM.
Extra keys are $40.62. http://www.courtesyparts.com/murano/keys.html
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Damn you beat me to it.. I was looking in the manuals this morning and didn't get a chance to locate it..
where in the manuals did you find it?
[EDIT] Found it under NATS..
Also I called my insurance company to get thier point of view on bypassing the security system (since the rates are based on it being in place..) I'm just waiting to hear back from them...
[Edit 2]
Insurance company says that since there was no discount tied "directly" to the anti-theft device (above what is given for the general clasification of the vehicle) then there is no change if a remote starter is installed (and the anti-theft is bypassed)
where in the manuals did you find it?
[EDIT] Found it under NATS..
Also I called my insurance company to get thier point of view on bypassing the security system (since the rates are based on it being in place..) I'm just waiting to hear back from them...
[Edit 2]
Insurance company says that since there was no discount tied "directly" to the anti-theft device (above what is given for the general clasification of the vehicle) then there is no change if a remote starter is installed (and the anti-theft is bypassed)
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293 Posts
I love the Nissan Service Manuals
NVIS (Nissan Vehicle Immobilizer System-NATS) has the following immobilizer functions:
Since only NVIS (NATS) ignition keys, whose ID nos. have been registered into the ECM and BCM, allow
the engine to run, operation of a stolen vehicle without a NVIS (NATS) registered key is prevented by
NVIS (NATS).
That is to say, NVIS (NATS) will immobilize the engine if someone tries to start it without the registered
key of NVIS (NATS).
All of the originally supplied ignition key IDs have been NVIS (NATS) registered.
If requested by the vehicle owner, a maximum of five key IDs can be registered into the NVIS (NATS)
components.
The security indicator blinks when the ignition switch is in “OFF” or “ACC” position. Therefore, NVIS
(NATS) warns outsiders that the vehicle is equipped with the anti-theft system.
When NVIS (NATS) detects trouble, the security indicator lamp lights up while ignition key is in the “ON”
position.
NVIS (NATS) trouble diagnoses, system initialization and additional registration of other NVIS (NATS)
ignition key IDs must be carried out using CONSULT-II hardware and CONSULT-II NVIS (NATS) software.
When NVIS (NATS) initialization has been completed, the ID of the inserted ignition key is automatically
NVIS (NATS) registered. Then, if necessary, additional registration of other NVIS (NATS) ignition key IDs
can be carried out.
Regarding the procedures of NVIS (NATS) initialization and NVIS (NATS) ignition key ID registration, refer
to CONSULT-II Operation Manual NATS-IVIS/NVIS.
When servicing a malfunction of the NVIS (NATS) (indicated by lighting up of Security Indicator
Lamp) or registering another NVIS (NATS) ignition key ID no., it may be necessary to re-register
original key identification. Therefore, be sure to receive ALL KEYS from vehicle owner.
NVIS (Nissan Vehicle Immobilizer System-NATS) has the following immobilizer functions:
Since only NVIS (NATS) ignition keys, whose ID nos. have been registered into the ECM and BCM, allow
the engine to run, operation of a stolen vehicle without a NVIS (NATS) registered key is prevented by
NVIS (NATS).
That is to say, NVIS (NATS) will immobilize the engine if someone tries to start it without the registered
key of NVIS (NATS).
All of the originally supplied ignition key IDs have been NVIS (NATS) registered.
If requested by the vehicle owner, a maximum of five key IDs can be registered into the NVIS (NATS)
components.
The security indicator blinks when the ignition switch is in “OFF” or “ACC” position. Therefore, NVIS
(NATS) warns outsiders that the vehicle is equipped with the anti-theft system.
When NVIS (NATS) detects trouble, the security indicator lamp lights up while ignition key is in the “ON”
position.
NVIS (NATS) trouble diagnoses, system initialization and additional registration of other NVIS (NATS)
ignition key IDs must be carried out using CONSULT-II hardware and CONSULT-II NVIS (NATS) software.
When NVIS (NATS) initialization has been completed, the ID of the inserted ignition key is automatically
NVIS (NATS) registered. Then, if necessary, additional registration of other NVIS (NATS) ignition key IDs
can be carried out.
Regarding the procedures of NVIS (NATS) initialization and NVIS (NATS) ignition key ID registration, refer
to CONSULT-II Operation Manual NATS-IVIS/NVIS.
When servicing a malfunction of the NVIS (NATS) (indicated by lighting up of Security Indicator
Lamp) or registering another NVIS (NATS) ignition key ID no., it may be necessary to re-register
original key identification. Therefore, be sure to receive ALL KEYS from vehicle owner.
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Maybe I missed something here but why is the security system disabled? Isn't the door still locked?
Wouldn't stealing the car require the door to be slim jimmed or othwise forced open, setting off the alarm, then it would require a thief to force a screw driver or similar implement into the key slot in the dash, in order to force it into the on position. Then they maybe would be able to drive it off?
I was told by the Viper dealer that I'm discussing this issue with that all of their systems require the key to be in the ignition and in the on position, or when you touch the brake pedal (to shift into gear) the engine will die and will not run.
He said this was a standard in the remote starter industry because of the potential theft opportunity unless something like this was implemented.
Wouldn't stealing the car require the door to be slim jimmed or othwise forced open, setting off the alarm, then it would require a thief to force a screw driver or similar implement into the key slot in the dash, in order to force it into the on position. Then they maybe would be able to drive it off?
I was told by the Viper dealer that I'm discussing this issue with that all of their systems require the key to be in the ignition and in the on position, or when you touch the brake pedal (to shift into gear) the engine will die and will not run.
He said this was a standard in the remote starter industry because of the potential theft opportunity unless something like this was implemented.
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293 Posts
the doors are locked, but it takes less then 10 seconds to jimmy opne a door, so locks are a moot point, plus they can break your windows.
"
Wouldn't stealing the car require the door to be slim jimmed or othwise forced open, setting off the alarm, then it would require a thief to force a screw driver or similar implement into the key slot in the dash, in order to force it into the on position. Then they maybe would be able to drive it off?"
you are correct, all can be done within about 30 seconds. The difference, is the ignition anti theft, int he case where you do NOT have a remote starter, then vehicle will not start, in the case where you DO, then off goes the thief with your car (since you kindly put a chip near the switch, and permananlty disabled the ignition anti theft), EDIT: forgot to add.. by turning the ignition "on" (with a screw driver) you turn off the "standard" vehicle alarm..)
your are corret as well.. it's a "security" problem industry wide for any remote starter. there are other security systems like GMs "passlock" which requires the remote starter to connect to the vehicles "bus" to bypass the "alarm" (they (not all) do not have ignition anti-theft) and let the car start.
there are varying type of "alarms" and "ignition control" solutions out there. some are better then others, but unfortuantly the solution for the MO, is to disable the ignition control (by placing the chip permanantly near the ignition.)
NOW.. there could be a better way.. think of this..
similiar to the "chip in the key" the remote starter company could place a "chip emulater" in the remote starter, which would only get triggered when you use the correct remote (for the remote starter) and not any other time. so you could try and break in (and jimy the ignition) but since there is no signal being sent (since you did not use the remote starter) you cannot steal the car..
there could be two ways to implement this..
1) put a code in the remote starter, and program the car to recogonize this chip as "valid" requires you to have a programmer for the car itself (the name used for this eludes me now..)
2) somehow make the remote starter "learn" the code from the key. (makes the starter more complex. but a more generic solution) the problem would be with all the difference frequences and codes across all the differnent car manufacturers..
"
Wouldn't stealing the car require the door to be slim jimmed or othwise forced open, setting off the alarm, then it would require a thief to force a screw driver or similar implement into the key slot in the dash, in order to force it into the on position. Then they maybe would be able to drive it off?"
you are correct, all can be done within about 30 seconds. The difference, is the ignition anti theft, int he case where you do NOT have a remote starter, then vehicle will not start, in the case where you DO, then off goes the thief with your car (since you kindly put a chip near the switch, and permananlty disabled the ignition anti theft), EDIT: forgot to add.. by turning the ignition "on" (with a screw driver) you turn off the "standard" vehicle alarm..)
your are corret as well.. it's a "security" problem industry wide for any remote starter. there are other security systems like GMs "passlock" which requires the remote starter to connect to the vehicles "bus" to bypass the "alarm" (they (not all) do not have ignition anti-theft) and let the car start.
there are varying type of "alarms" and "ignition control" solutions out there. some are better then others, but unfortuantly the solution for the MO, is to disable the ignition control (by placing the chip permanantly near the ignition.)
NOW.. there could be a better way.. think of this..
similiar to the "chip in the key" the remote starter company could place a "chip emulater" in the remote starter, which would only get triggered when you use the correct remote (for the remote starter) and not any other time. so you could try and break in (and jimy the ignition) but since there is no signal being sent (since you did not use the remote starter) you cannot steal the car..
there could be two ways to implement this..
1) put a code in the remote starter, and program the car to recogonize this chip as "valid" requires you to have a programmer for the car itself (the name used for this eludes me now..)
2) somehow make the remote starter "learn" the code from the key. (makes the starter more complex. but a more generic solution) the problem would be with all the difference frequences and codes across all the differnent car manufacturers..
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milgard:
are you saying the you can ONLY start it with the remote??? and no Key at all????? (to me this would sound dangerous. what happens when the battery in the remote start dies.. then you cannot start your call at all)
what they may have done is taken the chip out of your key.. use a small screw driver and you can open up the key to find out..
are you saying the you can ONLY start it with the remote??? and no Key at all????? (to me this would sound dangerous. what happens when the battery in the remote start dies.. then you cannot start your call at all)
what they may have done is taken the chip out of your key.. use a small screw driver and you can open up the key to find out..
No, no not at all. If I lock my vehicle with the remote start remote I must start it with the remote or I must unlock the vehicle with that remote to start it with the key. IE If I lock my MO with the remote start remote and somebody would try to break in and hotwire it, it won't start. The remote start module has a starter bypass...
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