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I think that since the catclean formula has acetone and would definitely be diluted , its probably safe. Like any gas thats inhaled, it takes a certain ppm to achieve a level that is toxic. Even low doses over a time weighted average is okay with some gases. Not trying to call these two different situations the same but they are relative. I would guess that straight acetone would perhaps ruin the fuel pump and hoses in the gas tank, but perhaps a diluted mixture would be perfectly fine.
 

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I wouldn't be too worried about the toxicity of acetone. It's smells nasty, but it's reasonably tolerated by the human body (e.g. see nail polish remover). Rather, my concern would be how it affects the rubber and plastic components in the fuel system, but again it would be quite diluted.

BTW, acetone, methanol, toluene, xylene and the other components of these products are great solvents in their natural form, but they are all volatile compounds and will be burned up in the combustion chamber along with the gasoline they're mixed with (i.e. these solvents will never reach the catalytic converters in their natural form). Thus, I would like to know how the combusted byproducts of these solvents are supposed to clean a catalytic converter?
 

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I think the laquer thinner creates hotter combustion temperatures which will then raise the normal temperature of the exhaust running through the cat and burn the small carbon deposits that collect. I dont think it has anything to do with what chemicals are left in the trace after combustion.
 

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Rather, my concern would be how it affects the rubber and plastic components in the fuel system, but again it would be quite diluted.

BTW, acetone, methanol, toluene, xylene and the other components of these products are great solvents in their natural form, but they are all volatile compounds and will be burned up in the combustion chamber along with the gasoline they're mixed with (i.e. these solvents will never reach the catalytic converters in their natural form). Thus, I would like to know how the combusted byproducts of these solvents are supposed to clean a catalytic converter?
I share your concern about the effects on components of the fuel system.

And your excellent question points strongly to the use of these substances as being in the category of "automobile juju" that someone dreamed up.
 
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I share your concern about the effects on components of the fuel system.

And your excellent question points strongly to the use of these substances as being in the category of "automobile juju" that someone dreamed up.
Not trying to sell snake oil or anything, but I'm pretty sure some or most of these components are already in gasoline.
 

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I think the laquer thinner creates hotter combustion temperatures which will then raise the normal temperature of the exhaust running through the cat and burn the small carbon deposits that collect. I dont think it has anything to do with what chemicals are left in the trace after combustion.
Yes, I've heard it described like this too somewhere (...probably a YouTube video or something), but that's not how the company describes how it works...

53551


In #2 is says the Cataclean "compounds" combine with exhaust gas, but never states what these compounds are. In #3 it says that these same "compounds" remove carbon and deposits from the catalytic converter and the little picture shows various molecules that happen to be carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and water (...is water the magic compound?!)

If you look at the MSDS of Cataclean, it's mostly stuff that you would find in a gasoline blend with the exception of a few compounds like the acetone, isopropyl alcohol, and kerosene, but all of it burns regardless.

53552



And check out this gem from their marketing literature:
53553


Detoxification technology? Internal combustion engines need to be detoxified? Seriously? This is the same marketing B.S. you see in the natural foods and supplement market. This whole thing reminds me of the time I was looking on Amazon for a paperless coffee filter for use with very finely ground coffee and I stumbled upon a product that had many 5-star reviews. I didn't really pay attention to the product description, but after reading some of the reviews it dawned on me that this product was to be used with a coffee enema to purportedly "detoxify" your body. It turns out that real people are actually shooting coffee up their a$$es!! :ROFLMAO: (...sorry if this offended anyone on this forum that may regularly partake in this practice...)
 

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Here's a question. I'm no scientist, which is why I'm throwing this out there.

The function of a cat is to react with exhaust gases, using several rare metals deposited on a open-grid metal frame so that the gases can flow freely across the surfaces, which converts the gases to water, CO, and trace amounts of other gases.

Now my understanding of physics, is that during any chemical reaction, whatever agent is used for the reaction is eventually used up.

Think a regular car battery. Most battery's fail due to age, the lead plates inside are slowly eaten up by the chemical reaction during the charging and discharging. The plates get thin and weak, eventually shifting and either shorting or breaking, creating an open circuit in the battery plates.

Seeing that the EOL of a cat is now 250K, and if the engine is running clean through it's life with minimum deposits on the cat grid, does that mean that if you've gotten to 200K and start to have issues with cat sensors that maybe the rare metals have been consumed?

This kind of makes sense to me because I've removed cats in the past where just looking at them, you know they were clogged and toast. But there have been a few that were high mileage cars where the cats, when removed, looked mostly free and clear. Replacing these cats usually resolved an emission issue, even though they looked ok.

Maybe someone here who has an chemical engineer degree can educate us further, or correct me if I'm wrong or maybe on the right track.

Have a good day.
 

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Here's a question. I'm no scientist, which is why I'm throwing this out there.

The function of a cat is to react with exhaust gases, using several rare metals deposited on a open-grid metal frame so that the gases can flow freely across the surfaces, which converts the gases to water, CO, and trace amounts of other gases.

Now my understanding of physics, is that during any chemical reaction, whatever agent is used for the reaction is eventually used up.

Think a regular car battery. Most battery's fail due to age, the lead plates inside are slowly eaten up by the chemical reaction during the charging and discharging. The plates get thin and weak, eventually shifting and either shorting or breaking, creating an open circuit in the battery plates.

Seeing that the EOL of a cat is now 250K, and if the engine is running clean through it's life with minimum deposits on the cat grid, does that mean that if you've gotten to 200K and start to have issues with cat sensors that maybe the rare metals have been consumed?

This kind of makes sense to me because I've removed cats in the past where just looking at them, you know they were clogged and toast. But there have been a few that were high mileage cars where the cats, when removed, looked mostly free and clear. Replacing these cats usually resolved an emission issue, even though they looked ok.

Maybe someone here who has an chemical engineer degree can educate us further, or correct me if I'm wrong or maybe on the right track.

Have a good day.
Well thought out and I can appreciate that. I'm not a chemineer either but have to agree with the thought pattern here.
 

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On my 2003 MO, I started throwing P0420 persistently around 2016, right around the 160,000-mile mark. Using a 32oz can of Jasco lacquer thinner every other fill-up in conjunction with driving in S up to 45MPH for extended periods to keep the RPMs and heat up cleared that code and also made MO run smoother and faster. I ended up at 301,400 miles before it appears MO blew a head gasket, which I feel isn't due to the regular use of lacquer roughly every other fillup for a few weeks, then letting a few months go by and waiting for the code to return, which it always did. I tried just keeping the RPMs up to heat up the CATs and burn out the blockages, but it did no good. Lacquer thinner seemed to be the catalyst for cleaner-running CATs. Late last year into March of this year, I started putting an entire gallon of Jasco in the fuel, and MO accelerated like a rocket and the CAT codes (I used to get P0430 every so often) stayed away for I think 5-6 months. If using lacquer thinner caused any damage to trigger what happened to my MO, it took more than five years and over 140,000 miles for it to happen, and I was being overly aggressive with the engine and thinner at times as I experimented and had to get the car to pass the State inspection. If I didn't have to pass the State inspection, I could've lived with the code and slightly less than steller acceleration, and would've just kept using 93 octane and STP High Mileage fuel additive.

I'd soak the CATs in a bucket of more-concentrated pool chlorine for a few days (outside). A high enough mix where if you left your T-shirt in it for 24 hours, the shirt would tear easily with the slightest pull. That'll clean them out super nice. Then take a deadblow mallet and smack around them to get out any loose crap. But that's what I'd do first before replacing them with either better-quality expensive ones, or el cheaps with poor welds that will likely start to leak shortly after installation.
 
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On my 2003 MO, I started throwing P0420 persistently around 2016, right around the 160,000-mile mark. Using a 32oz can of Jasco lacquer thinner every other fill-up in conjunction with driving in S up to 45MPH for extended periods to keep the RPMs and heat up cleared that code and also made MO run smoother and faster. I ended up at 301,400 miles before it appears MO blew a head gasket, which I feel isn't due to the regular use of lacquer roughly every other fillup for a few weeks, then letting a few months go by and waiting for the code to return, which it always did. I tried just keeping the RPMs up to heat up the CATs and burn out the blockages, but it did no good. Lacquer thinner seemed to be the catalyst for cleaner-running CATs. Late last year into March of this year, I started putting an entire gallon of Jasco in the fuel, and MO accelerated like a rocket and the CAT codes (I used to get P0430 every so often) stayed away for I think 5-6 months. If using lacquer thinner caused any damage to trigger what happened to my MO, it took more than five years and over 140,000 miles for it to happen, and I was being overly aggressive with the engine and thinner at times as I experimented and had to get the car to pass the State inspection. If I didn't have to pass the State inspection, I could've lived with the code and slightly less than steller acceleration, and would've just kept using 93 octane and STP High Mileage fuel additive.

I'd soak the CATs in a bucket of more-concentrated pool chlorine for a few days (outside). A high enough mix where if you left your T-shirt in it for 24 hours, the shirt would tear easily with the slightest pull. That'll clean them out super nice. Then take a deadblow mallet and smack around them to get out any loose crap. But that's what I'd do first before replacing them with either better-quality expensive ones, or el cheaps with poor welds that will likely start to leak shortly after installation.
I was very tempted to try the lacquer thinner on my 99 odyssey but opted to do the anti fouler trick instead. It worked and the smog folks in NV is no way as strict as the ones in CA. Wasn't sure if they will look down there but apparently they don't. Never seen the code since. Did not even need to change the O2 sensor.
 

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Here's a question. I'm no scientist, which is why I'm throwing this out there.

The function of a cat is to react with exhaust gases, using several rare metals deposited on a open-grid metal frame so that the gases can flow freely across the surfaces, which converts the gases to water, CO, and trace amounts of other gases.

Now my understanding of physics, is that during any chemical reaction, whatever agent is used for the reaction is eventually used up.

Think a regular car battery. Most battery's fail due to age, the lead plates inside are slowly eaten up by the chemical reaction during the charging and discharging. The plates get thin and weak, eventually shifting and either shorting or breaking, creating an open circuit in the battery plates.

Seeing that the EOL of a cat is now 250K, and if the engine is running clean through it's life with minimum deposits on the cat grid, does that mean that if you've gotten to 200K and start to have issues with cat sensors that maybe the rare metals have been consumed?

This kind of makes sense to me because I've removed cats in the past where just looking at them, you know they were clogged and toast. But there have been a few that were high mileage cars where the cats, when removed, looked mostly free and clear. Replacing these cats usually resolved an emission issue, even though they looked ok.

Maybe someone here who has an chemical engineer degree can educate us further, or correct me if I'm wrong or maybe on the right track.

Have a good day.
A catalyst is an agent that facilitates or accelerates a chemical reaction, but is itself not actually used or consumed in the reaction. The video below provides a good (and brief) explanation of how the stages of a catalytic converter work and it's pretty clever (...this is a good YouTube channel from an engineer that spent some time in the automotive industry).

In a nutshell, exhaust gasses enter the 1st substrate (1st stage), which contains platinum and rhodium and its purpose is to remove NOx emissions. The oxygen bond in NOx is weak so it sticks to the platinum/rhodium substrate and ends up bonding with other freed up oxygen atoms to form O2. The free nitrogen atoms also end up bonding with other nitrogen atoms so after passing through the 1st stage, NOx is basically turned into N2 and O2. In the 2nd stage, the O2 from the 1st stage passes into the 2nd substrate, which contains platinum and palladium, and is used to oxidase unburned fuel (HC) and carbon monoxide (CO) with the end result being carbon dioxide and water coming out the other end.

What the video didn't talk about though was another coating used in modern cats (cerium) that actually stores oxygen so that the converter has another source of it besides what is stripped from NOx.

So, why might a visibly normal looking catalytic converter substrate not be working well anymore? This is purely my conjecture: While there may be no visible contamination, perhaps it's possible that there is still something coating the substrate, at least enough to substantially reduce its efficiency. Exhaust gases must be able to physically touch the substrate for the reactions to occur so anything that might separate the substrate from the gases would impact its performance. Exhaust manufacturers like Walker and Eastern make reference to converter "poisoning" which I guess is supposed to be some parallel with O2 sensor poisoning. Also, I would think that over time, the friction of all the molecules passing over the substrate would eventually erode the precious metals the same way that wind erosion can wear away the rocky surface of a mountain. The substrates are also exposed to a lot of heat and maybe thermal cycling over many years has some effect.

BTW, I'm not a chemist so take the above with copious amounts of NaCL. ;-)

 

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A catalyst is an agent that facilitates or accelerates a chemical reaction, but is itself not actually used or consumed in the reaction. The video below provides a good (and brief) explanation of how the stages of a catalytic converter work and it's pretty clever (...this is a good YouTube channel from an engineer that spent some time in the automotive industry).

In a nutshell, exhaust gasses enter the 1st substrate (1st stage), which contains platinum and rhodium and its purpose is to remove NOx emissions. The oxygen bond in NOx is weak so it sticks to the platinum/rhodium substrate and ends up bonding with other freed up oxygen atoms to form O2. The free nitrogen atoms also end up bonding with other nitrogen atoms so after passing through the 1st stage, NOx is basically turned into N2 and O2. In the 2nd stage, the O2 from the 1st stage passes into the 2nd substrate, which contains platinum and palladium, and is used to oxidase unburned fuel (HC) and carbon monoxide (CO) with the end result being carbon dioxide and water coming out the other end.

What the video didn't talk about though was another coating used in modern cats (cerium) that actually stores oxygen so that the converter has another source of it besides what is stripped from NOx.

So, why might a visibly normal looking catalytic converter substrate not be working well anymore? This is purely my conjecture: While there may be no visible contamination, perhaps it's possible that there is still something coating the substrate, at least enough to substantially reduce its efficiency. Exhaust gases must be able to physically touch the substrate for the reactions to occur so anything that might separate the substrate from the gases would impact its performance. Exhaust manufacturers like Walker and Eastern make reference to converter "poisoning" which I guess is supposed to be some parallel with O2 sensor poisoning. Also, I would think that over time, the friction of all the molecules passing over the substrate would eventually erode the precious metals the same way that wind erosion can wear away the rocky surface of a mountain. The substrates are also exposed to a lot of heat and maybe thermal cycling over many years has some effect.

BTW, I'm not a chemist so take the above with copious amounts of NaCL. ;-)

Well said! Correct me if I'm wrong, but those precious metals are also layered on ceramic to absorb the heat and use the heat in a part of the reaction?
 

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Well said! Correct me if I'm wrong, but those precious metals are also layered on ceramic to absorb the heat and use the heat in a part of the reaction?
I don't know that the ceramic is there to specifically absorb heat, but ceramics do tend to tolerate high temperatures very well. But, heat is extremely important for the reactions. The catalytic converter doesn't start operating really until it reaches about 500F where it's only operating at 50% efficiency. Peak efficiency occurs somewhere between 900-1,600F.
 

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I'm starting to see why specifically lacquer thinner or a dedicated formula used for cleaning a catylitic converter can work. Whether it be used for the purpose of a permanent or temporary fix. Say you have a code and its caused by something upstream and its not necessarily that the converter is toast. Perhaps you fix the underlying problem and use a cleaner in your fuel to finish the fix and permanently clear the code. On the other hand if your converter is more than likely the cause and you use the cleaner, then maybe this is indeed considered a temporary fix to the symptom of the problem. So even if the code clears in this case, then it would most likely come back later and indicate that the converter definitely requires replacement.
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Ok Murano family... the final verdict is in (for now lol)

I replaced all four 02 sensors.
I changed out the spark plugs ( but kept the original ignition coils)
I kept the original CATS

After getting everything back together I cleared all the check engine light codes with my code reader and a day later I put the Murano on the highway and put it on the highway again a day after that. No codes were thrown and my Zurich Z8 code reader displayed all systems as "ready". So I took it in for state inspection and emissions (aka smog test) and it passed with no problem.
I'd like to thank everyone for helping me get my murano back on the road!!
Any future readers can msg me and I'll help out as much as I can.
Again THANK YOU Murano forum Family!!
 

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Ok Murano family... the final verdict is in (for now lol)

I replaced all four 02 sensors.
I changed out the spark plugs ( but kept the original ignition coils)
I kept the original CATS

After getting everything back together I cleared all the check engine light codes with my code reader and a day later I put the Murano on the highway and put it on the highway again a day after that. No codes were thrown and my Zurich Z8 code reader displayed all systems as "ready". So I took it in for state inspection and emissions (aka smog test) and it passed with no problem.
I'd like to thank everyone for helping me get my murano back on the road!!
Any future readers can msg me and I'll help out as much as I can.
Again THANK YOU Murano forum Family!!
Good job! Out of curiosity, did the inspector look under the car? What state are you in?
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Good job! Out of curiosity, did the inspector look under the car? What state are you in?
I'm in PA

No, they don't look under the car or hood. The state dmv issues a software that certified inspection/emissions stations must have. Then the station has a few different code reader options that the state mandates the inspection station to use for emissions tests. Once the code reader is connected to the car, the software connects to the dmv's online database. The software then reads the code reader and issues the results of the test (automated). A bar code is generated (either 1-D or UPC) which is then scanned and used to match the windshield display stickers. they also check your gas caps integrity and I think there is an optional check at the final exit of exhaust (I say optional because I know for a fact that not every station does it).
The inspection (which is separate from emissions) is a check of tires, brake pads, and rotors (some mechanics eye ball it lol some mechanics use tools to measure). All lights (hazard lights, turn signals, flood lights, high beams, brake lights and reverse lights) then a few other basic safety features like emergency brakes. They even honk your horn lol.
The emissions part is the most time consuming and is what usually makes a car fail. Your cars computer can only show up to 2 minor check engine codes to pass (of course something like P0420 isn't considered minor). Sometimes these codes don't even throw your check engine light but the automated emissions report will display them.

This is why my murano was off the road for over a year. The police here will IMMEDIATELY pull you over for expired stickers.
In my teens, I remember getting pulled over for an inspection sticker thinking it wasn't a big deal. I never seen a cop make a u turn so hard lol. So i pull over, he comes up to my window and asks why my car isn't inspected. Of course I lie and say I'm literally on my way to the shop lol 😆. He asks for my license, insurance, and registration (which I have all 3). Now I can tell he's about to make me park the car and tell me to have it towed to the shop (which would have easily cost $70-$100) BUT RIGHT BEFORE HE GOES BACK TO HIS CAR TO MAKE A REPORT, his radio goes off......

"2435!!!! STOP MAKING ROUTINE TRAFFIC STOPS!!"

I guess they needed him to patrol for more serious things that particular day. So since he didn't turn his radio volume down I heard the whole thing lol .... I couldn't have smiled any harder knowing I just caught a huge break lol
So the cop hands me back my license and insurance cards etc... "get outta here kid!! And get your car inspected TODAY!!" 😅
So of course being the teen I was, I didn't get the car inspected for another week or two 🙃.
 

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Massachusetts safety inspection is fairly strict. Along with all that you mentioned, the state has several cameras monitoring the inspection... So, the shop I go to performs it to the tee, Big Brother is watching him... He even jacked up the front end to check for tie rod and bearing wear on my brand new 19's initial inspection. He caught that my '03 had a tiny bit of tie rod slop just before I traded it for my '19 Murano, so I got a rejection sticker (it's not legally drivable with a rejection sticker, but I only live a mile from the inspection station.) However, he TOTALLY missed the severe front subframe rot only inches away from where he was jacking up, lucky for me at the time, but bad from a safety inspection standpoint... Luckily I caught it myself about a week later, so I traded it for my '19. It was expensive to repair, about $1500-2000, not worth it for an '03 IMO.
 
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