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LOL! Yeah, but STAINLESS steel :D.

I can atest to the white stuff on black plastic/rubber trim. PITA. Comes off with some effort (toothbrush) and a little alcohol or dawn help though. Zaino just wipes right off with a cotton cloth, easy.

I don't think there is any way to remove scratches permanently unless you fill the valley (langka/refinish) or grind off the canyon walls (buffing). But the latter reduces the life of the clear coat and in some cases, the scratches can go right through the clear coat. Meaning you'd have to buff off the clear coat.

So the swirl removers, even if temporary, can be an attractive alternative.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
esemes said:
its been my understanding (having used M's swirl remover years ago) that the M's stuff 'removes' the appearance of swirls only......


swirls are in the topcoat, and cannot be removed with a polish/agent... the M's fills the swirls with an oil, making it appear to have been removed....

i like their stuff alot, but this is what i was told some years ago..
Well then, you were told wrong.
Meguiars makes a fine cut, medium cut and even a heavy cut product that will REMOVE swirls and scratches.

I have never had the cajones to use the Heavy cut. I leave that to the Pros.

But I have used the Medium cut, followed by the fine cut, to do away with Dealer induced swirls.
You do have to be careful and you do need a Porter Cable random orbital buffer, or equivalent. And IMO there is no equivalent. But like most serious show guys, I am very biased as to my tools.

Now, if there are very heavy swirls then it should be turned over to a Pro, and he is more apt to use 3M products rather than Meguiars.
But make no mistake about it, Meguiars makes some very fine products to REMOVE swirls (and also a good product to hide swirls) and you can go tell whoever told you otherwise that I said so. :p

Homer
 

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okay... i am now standing corrected...

but dont get your tone or attitude whatsoever.....

i wonder, at what expense, does the 'removal' of the swirls occur?? i mean, the edges are smoothed out, thereby reducing the surface in other places??

this is a one-time application then??
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Hmmmnn.
Well yes, there certainly is loss of coating when these products are used. but the real loss occurred when the swirls were made.

The whole idea idea is to take the high points of the swirl and lower them to the current low points.

So I guess you could say it is a one time thing in any one spot.....depending on how much was removed.

Just remember, the loss was incurred at the time the swirl was induced, not in the repair.



Tone?
This is the second time you have attempted to measure my "tone" in an internet message.
I speak plainly and bluntly.
I won't apologige for that.
I dont look at messages for hidden messages.
I, for instance, never took your message that Meguiars didn't remove swirls as a challenging "tone". I did take it as message with wrong and misleading facts. It needed to be corrected as many people here who know far more than me about other matters, may actually have believed that Meguiers did not have these products available. And anybody can use them to correct swirls (With restrictions as I noted).
And I never replied to your strangely worded reply to my message concerning how different people treat car care as different people treat car mods. I didn't reply, because I believe in live and let live and because I am totally unable to tell a persons "tone" from an Internet post. It seemed argumentative but.........

Well, anyway, you are my first ignore. Good bye.

Homer
 

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homer

since this is now a personal post made public, i'll offer to you this (as unstrangely as possible)......

i dont (nor did i ever) seek an apology from you (as aforementioned) nor do i care to bicker with you about what the intent of a product is.... my experiences in auto detailing have led to different conclusions...


i thought we were on the same side of the fence with our views.... and my asking "why" on certain topics is to help generate a "why" and "how to" response (and to add to some site content and knowledge for us that simply dont know); not to criticize or belittle.... i guess that was not made clear by my rhetoric..

so, as per the design of this site, rather than 'ignore', (easy way out) maybe you can help enlighten me (and others that remain silent for whatever reason) as to the "why" and "how" of your carcare knowledge........thats all i was after....

to everyone else.... sorry to have hijacked this thread....

back on track..........

the only meguair's swirl remover i have used (granted, its been a few years) was the oil-based (?) product, that fills the swirls with the product, and will wear off in a short period (maybe say a month) of time/washes.....
 

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I noticed before I waxed with Meguire's Gold that the paint on the Murano does not reflect perfectly flat, or has very faint/small bumpy distortion. You will notice this on many vehicles if you view the hard edge of a reflection.

This is not wax build up (though I understand wax can do that), just something about the way the paint or clear coat goes on.

Anyway, I was wondering if Zaino will actually make a flat slick reflection after multiple coats? It sounds like it will from the website and other people's experience here. I probably won't mess with it till the Spring. Then I will probably do the Dawn car wash and Zaino system. I am less concerned about a auto-show/wet shine then I am about protecting the paint. Actually if it gets too reflective I have a hard time finding it in the lot ;)
 

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LOL!

I was going to ask the same question but in a different way. I call what your talking about "orange peel". And yes, it's on all new cars. I saw a black Mercedes and a Black Z (brand new) at my dealer the other day and the Mercedes was actually worse. Wish I had taken my camera. This was a big topic on the Z forums. Shows up really well on dark colors and seems to be more prevalent on the sides/slopes. May just be an optical illusion thing, I don't know. But I don't see it as much on the top of the MO. My GP hides it pretty well. I've got a few coats of Zaino on and the effect is reduced but not gone like it was with a few coats of carnuba. And I'm a Zaino newbie so I may be doing something wrong. And I'm wondering is Z2 or Z5 the best for this and how many coats will it take? I think the answer is...depends. Which is fine. And if it's a matter of buffing...well it'll just have to stay that way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
My Buffer is a 7336.
I like it because it is fairly light, very maneuverable, is the right size (mid size-6") and has a nicely variable speed down to very slow. You need to buy this bad boy from a pro tool shop and you need to talk to the guy about pads and counterweights. Or you need to contact Griots Garage on the Internet as the prepackage this thing with just what you will need (Orat least they used tO)
There are a bunch of pads out there and you don't want to save money on pads. You can trust 3m pads (of course) and a brand that you see around occasionally that I like is called Lake Country has a good rep as does Meguiars pads tho I have never used them.
With Carnauba wax, I applied and buffed with my PC. but with Zaino I only buff. I apply Zaino by hand........and I don't know exactly why.

IF you apply with a buffer you have to be careful not to "sling" product. (Of course if you sling or throw Zaino, you have used far too much ;) ). So if you ever do apply, turn the PC on it's back. apply the stuff to the pad, turn the PC over and with the PC turned OFF, spread the stuff around and then turn the buffer on.

When using the PC to apply/buff good quality wax (like P21s) or Zaino, you do not have to press down on the buffer at all.
Let the pc do the job.
The ONLY time you press down in an orbital is if you are doing something like swirl removal, with something like Meguiars Medium Cut Cleaner. And then you better be careful. Once you cut too far, it's all over. And then you come back with the Fine Cut Cleaner and let the tool do the work. Then finish up with a mild polish, again letting the tool do the work.

In the olden days, we used to have to really push down on our buffers when working with heavily oxidized paint. But I haven't seen paint like that in years. Meybe it's because I buy better cars?

Copper, one continuing failure of most japanese cars and I think, Nissan in particular, is "Orange peel" paint. There are many theories about what causes it, but all pretty well agree is that it is caused by a painter that doesn't quite know what he is doing.
There is something wrong with the application process, Most likely, the paint is being applied too liberally although I'm starting to get into an argumentative area and I am not a painter.
Since on an Auto assy line it is computer controlled, we know that the beauty of mass production takes over and all the nissans probably will have a substandard paint job. Look at a Jaguar (Ford) if you want to see a beautiful paint job.
Even the $30K Jag.
The Murano Orange Peel is not bad. Some are much worse.

By the time you get to 5 or 6 coats of Z2 you will not notice the Orange Peel on your Murano.


Homer
 

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I can completely support the statement that the meguiars "apparently" fills in the scratches.

It's been my experience that the scratches will magically reappear in exactly the same places in a few weeks as the wax wears off.

I used Meguiars exclusively on my 95 Maxima (Deep Evergreen color) for years and the products are in general very nice. The newer sealers (Klasse and Zaino) are far superior IMO.

I'm using the Klasse All in One and their high gloss sealer. Then I top it all off with a good quality carnuba wax. I really like the Pinnacle Souveran Wax.

Incrediblely easy to put on (like softened butter and easier yet to wipe off) but it doesn't last much more than 6-7 weeks and it is expensive.



(OK, so I'm a little anal abouot protecting that paint job.)
 

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Porter Cable

Enforcer...

First, thanks for all the information you've put onto this forum. It's great reading.

Here is a great forum for car detailing. There are a lot of professiona detailers that use this page and share their technique. All types of waxes, synthetics and swirl removers are discussed here. I have no affiliation with this page. Just someone that wants information.

Some swirl removers are fillers by the way. (re: other responses in this thread)


Do a search on the porter cable. I recall some threads on locations to get the best price.

Good luck. Glad you've tried Zaino. It's the best.

http://www.autopia.org/forums/index.php
 

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I think we might be talking about two things here? The waxes/cleaners with varying levels of abrasive will remove major swirls to minor scratches by taking the surface down just the microscopic level it needs to equal the "valley". Of course I would not use those on new paint (ever).

I had some Cat Scratch Fever on the top of the car and I cannot see it now. No matter how hard I look. It seemed to rub away with a non-abrasive wax (Mcguires Gold). Maybe there is a subtle amount of abrasive with any wax that requires considerable elbow grease to buff out? You get minor abrasion just in rubbing it off with a cotton towel? I guess if it comes back with with a good wash or in time, I will know. The scratched seemed to barely penetrate the clear coat, and seemed to magically rub away in buffing off the wax, so we will see.
 

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I've been using MaGuires polish and carnuba wax, and although it is a little extra work, using both turns the surface of the Murano into something magical. After a month of driving through many rainy days and a construction zone where they are widening the road (lots of dust in the air), the Murano still looks like it was just washed! If nothing else, try polishing your car and then giving it a good wax, the extra work REALLY pays off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Many people PREFER to use both.
Why?

Well there is a "happy marriage" that takes place.

Polymers actually bond with the Polymer coartings that we call "paint). (And BTW the Clearcoat is the very same as the color "Paint" it just doesn't have pigmentation added.)
So Polymers bond, waxes don't. Waxes just set on top of polymers.
Part of the reason they don't have the durability.

But do waxes do something "magical"?
Some people think so.
They DO make a difference.

If you use just polymer, and add coat after coat, you will eventually after 5 or 6 coats achieve a glass like finish that is optically perfect. Or at least 99.99% perfect. Wax folks say it looks "synthetic".:cool:
Wax folks like wax.
Wax is not optically perfect.
It imparts a glow.
Some really like the glow. And it is a traditional look.
That's why, when you get back to the car shows that feature the "real" classic pre war cars, you won't find synthetics being used.
They will only use carnauba wax. (Of course durability, which waxes lack, is not a concern either, since these old bentlys and duesenbergs, etc, rarely see the outside and never see acid rain, etc.).

So, some people, like jloebick, will put on a synthetic polish and follow it up with a wax.
They get the protection of a synthetic and the "glow" (But not the reflectivity) of a wax.

I've done it too. That's how I know of P21s.
If you are willing to experiment, just put a coart of P21s on your zaino finish. Just 1 coat. Multiple wax coats don't help.
And if you don't like it, you can wait 4-6 weeks and it will be gone or you can just wash your car with Dawn and that will take the wax off and won't touch the Zaino.

But you just may like the look. It IS cool. It will not win concours but what the hey. If you like it.............that's all that counts.
I like it but can't make up my mind which I like better so I switch back and forth.


Homer
 

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Thanks Homer! I'll find one, will try Griots Garage. And will try the P21S when I'm done with 5 or so Zaino coats.

Yeah I know, big argument area, I just know what my father has told me and he used to have a body shop in the late '50's (lead, lacquer etc) and the last time he did any work for us boys was in the 80's so his knowledge is a little outdated but I think it still applies. May be some issues with the new finishes.

The thing I don't get is, I have been told that Nissan paints their vehicles with robots. Presuming it's true, I would think they ought to be able to get it tuned and prevent it.

Anyhow, can't imagine using the buffer for Zaino, too easy and effecient by hand. Want a slow speed buffer, variable is fantastic, to take care of some home issues now (shower scratches) and maybe automotive in the future. But want to buy a good one. Everything around here is high rpm and cheesey.
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
hmmmnnnnn. Shower scratches..........

Well.............

Let's start over.

How slow is slow?

On the ideal tile buffer, it might be 600RPM.................?

I've used a variable speed drill (Dangerous because it is a direct drice, circular motion.....) with a pad, on scratched Kitchen tile.

On a random Orbital Buffer used on autos..............its about 2500 rpms.........variable up to 6000 RPMs.

So........"slow" is relative.


Homer

Oh yeah, all "paint" in the factory is Robot now..........well except for certain low volume ops. Last I heard, RR and Jag are still hand painted.
The thing with robots is that once parameters are built in, then the robot can only paint within those parameters.
A man has an INFINITE number of parameters.

H
 
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