Sounds to me the problem is electrical... I would have the battery and alternator load tested, this will definitively show whether they are good or bad...

I'm sure you have already done this, but make sure the battery terminals are totally free of corrosion and snug. If there has been severe battery terminal corrosion in the past, one or both of the battery cables may have internal corrosion and high resistance. Also check and clean ground connections, especially the one under the battery tray, and the connection to the CVT.

 

Thanks,
Are you talking about the failure to start or the lights flickering? The alternator and battery are a year old but I can have it checked. I’ll also check the cables and grounds. I’ll need to find where the CVT ground is.

 

The fuel pressure regulator is integrated into the fuel pump assembly. You say you have a high-end scan tool so you should be able to look at some live data. I would suggest looking at engine coolant (ECT) and air temperature (IAT) readings with the engine cold in the morning with key-on, engine off and see if the measurements the ECM is reading look consistent given the ambient air temperature. A high/higher than normal ECT temperature on a cold day can cause a no-start because the A/F mixture will be way too lean for a cold engine. If those look fine, I would turn the engine on (if it starts), let it warm up to operating temperature, and check fuel trims and the MAF sensor reading. In fact, the next time this no-start problem happens disconnect the MAF sensor and try to start the engine--if it does then inspect the sensor for contamination/corrosion since this can definitely cause a no-start.

If you suspect the problem is with the fuel pressure regulator (e.g. stuck open) or a weak fuel pump, I would expect fuel trims to be on the lean side (high positive) at idle for both banks with trims possibly getting worse as engine speed and load increase. Unfortunately, a special adapter needs to be installed inline to the fuel rail to do fuel pressure testing. You may want to keep a can of starter fluid (or brake parts cleaner) in the car for when it happens again and if it won't start up right away, spray some into one of the hoses attached to the intake manifold (e.g. brake booster). If it starts right up with starter fluid then that usually indicates a fuel delivery issue. If the problem is something like a leaking fuel injector that's flooding the engine then I would expect to see one bank running much richer than the other (i.e. higher negative fuel trims) and I would think a big puff of black smoke from the tail pipe would be evident upon start-up every time the car has been sitting for hours.

Hopefully, this gives you something to start with. Intermittent problems can be tough to chase. Let us know what you find. The factory service manual for the car is available here (...see the "Engine Control System" file): https://www.nicoclub.com/nissan-service-manuals

 

The fuel pressure regulator is integrated into the fuel pump assembly. You say you have a high-end scan tool so you should be able to look at some live data. I would suggest looking at engine coolant (ECT) and air temperature (IAT) readings with the engine cold in the morning with key-on, engine off and see if the measurements the ECM is reading look consistent given the ambient air temperature. A high/higher than normal ECT temperature on a cold day can cause a no-start because the A/F mixture will be way too lean for a cold engine. If those look fine, I would turn the engine on (if it starts), let it warm up to operating temperature, and check fuel trims and the MAF sensor reading. In fact, the next time this no-start problem happens disconnect the MAF sensor and try to start the engine--if it does then inspect the sensor for contamination/corrosion since this can definitely cause a no-start.

If you suspect the problem is with the fuel pressure regulator (e.g. stuck open) or a weak fuel pump, I would expect fuel trims to be on the lean side (high positive) at idle for both banks with trims possibly getting worse as engine speed and load increase. Unfortunately, a special adapter needs to be installed inline to the fuel rail to do fuel pressure testing. You may want to keep a can of starter fluid (or brake parts cleaner) in the car for when it happens again and if it won't start up right away, spray some into one of the hoses attached to the intake ma was nifold (e.g. brake booster). If it starts right up with starter fluid then that usually indicates a fuel delivery issue. If the problem is something like a leaking fuel injector that's flooding the engine then I would expect to see one bank running much richer than the other (i.e. higher negative fuel trims) and I would think a big puff of black smoke from the tail pipe would be evident upon start-up every time the car has been sitting for hours.

Hopefully, this gives you something to start with. Intermittent problems can be tough to chase. Let us know what you find. The factory service manual for the car is available here (...see the "Engine Control System" file): https://www.nicoclub.com/nissan-service-manuals

I was able to look up the readings I captured the other day. The engine wasn't fully cold tho. IAT was 73 degrees which seemed high to me and coolant about 160. I drove the car around the block monitoring the temps, I had IAT at 73 and coolant about 160 when I started. IAT got down to 58 with coolant at 170 on my drive. My last readings were IAT at 79 and coolant at 190 as it sat in the driveway.
I will arrange to get the temps without starting the car. Since it is push button start, I might have some trouble getting the cold readings but I'll try.
I think there are quite a few fuel trim parameters I can read, I'll get as many as I can.
I was thinking about an injector, I'll get the fuel trims and see what they are.
Would a bad regulator way back on the pump act the same way as one on the rail? It looks like the pump is somewhat easy to access if needed.
Thanks for the information, I'll post back with results.
The manual link is invaluable.
Thanks.

 

I'm not sure the dimming lights while the engine is running are directly related to the starting problem, but it's possible. It could just be a buggy aftermarket alternator that was used for the replacement. Unfortunately, we've heard time and again of people going through two or three aftermarket alternators before finding a good one...

If you live in a rustbelt region then you should definitely check the battery negative cable connections. The cable attaches to the frame via a bracket underneath the battery tray and terminates at the CVT. If the cable is crusty and/or any of those connections are corroded then I would suggest replacing the cable.

I would also check the drive belt tensioner and idler pulleys. Usually a shop won't replace those along with the drive belt unless you ask and if the car has anywhere near 100k miles or more those are probably shot.

 

I was able to get data when the car sat overnight in about 35 degree temps. It started normally for me, my daughter did have some trouble in the past few days with the first start of the day. My scan tool dashboard read IAT of 45 and coolant of 46 in 35 degree temp at startup. I did stream the data and the very first coolant temp recorded was 91, not sure why that is. I did watch the dashboard and the temp continuously increased and the IAT slowly climbed as the car warmed up. I also recorded the fuel trim values and MAP values. Should the long term trim values be similar for both banks? The short term values generally moved together. I made a pdf of the data and attached it, I couldn't attach the excel file for some reason.
Below is a summary of the data.

I will look for a place to load test the charging system today and check the battery cables.
thanks for all of the guidance.

 

I ran a scan and found a P0420 code. The check engine light is not on. I’m thinking it isn’t related because of open loop.

 

Forgot to upload a pic with the ECT sensor location... It's on driver's side of the engine plugged into a coolant gallery. Take off the air intake tubing and you should be able to get to it no problem.

 

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
I was able to check my daughters car this morning,
Attached is a summary of the data and the whole report is attached. I did add rpm and opened the throttle after it was warmed up. The temp sensor data looks good to me this time. The car has about 130K miles. Does the short/long trim data suggest anything?
I can take DVOM readings at the battery terminals. Will a bad cable feel warn due to high resistance?
Due to the cars age, is it worth replacing both cables? I looked at local parts stores and the negative cables they say fit are between 25 and 72". Not sure where to find the parts, its surprisingly difficult . My go to Rock Auto doesn't have them listed. Any other suggestions on what I can check?

 

@I need coffee reported this:

nissanpartsdeal.com is discounting OEM parts up to 45% from MSRP for Black Friday: Genuine OEM Nissan Parts and Accessories Online - Nissan Parts Deal We've had a lot of posters having problems with cheap aftermarket parts lately so this is potentially an opportunity to buy OEM at a steep discount.

 

You'll have to go OEM for the negative cable since it has a current sensor integrated into it. The part number is 24080-1AA0A.

Those fuel trims look fine as do the other readings. Has that problem occurred in the last few start-up attempts? Intermittent issues can be a pain to track down.

 

I'll look into a cable. The issue started on our first cold morning this winter. It typically starts well during the day, she had one instance where it didn't start normally.

It's been very intermittent starting issues with it starting normally most mornings, both times I read the data it started normally.

I'm concerned with our Minnesota winters that she may get stranded with a no start. I have a charging system tester arriving tomorrow. and I'll report the results.

 

A cheap multimeter should work just fine to load test your battery and alternator. Harbor Freight or Walmart has them. <15 bucks.

 

I got an analyzer and checked the battery and charging system. The first time I checked the battery, it reported low CCA left I the battery, around 375 CCA. I thought I captured that screen but didn’t. On the retest, it said the battery was ok. I did get a screenshot of the remaining screens. I’m still looking for a place to load test the system.

 

The above, if I'm understanding it correctly, shows your alternator is most likely fine, and your battery was either undercharged or needing to be replaced...

If you have a battery charger, put it on at around 2 amps until it's fully charged. Lower charging amps is more friendly to the battery chemistry. Of course you can use higher amps if you need it charged faster... Test it with you battery analyzer after being fully charged. I would let it rest for a few hours before testing to allow surface charge dissipate.

Any local auto parts store should be able to load test the alternator and battery for free.

 

The above, if I'm understanding it correctly, shows your alternator is most likely fine, and your battery was either undercharged or needing to be replaced...

If you have a battery charger, put it on at around 2 amps until it's fully charged. Lower charging amps is more friendly to the battery chemistry. Of course you can use higher amps if you need it charged faster... Test it with you battery analyzer after being fully charged. I would let it rest for a few hours before testing to allow surface charge dissipate.

Any local auto parts store should be able to load test the alternator and battery for free.

Autozone near me will just check the battery not the alternator, I'll try O'Reilly next time I can get her car (Wednesday hopefully). I should have it Friday night to put it on the charger. It does have a 2 amp setting.
The battery and alternator are both about 1.5 years old. If either shows some problems, I'll take if back to the shop who replaced them. The alternator is buried on the bottom of the engine tho.
Does the dip down to 7.5 volts at starting indicate anything?
I read a little about ripple, most things I read said it should be under .05 volts for most cars, I have .17 volts. Not sure if it matters



.

 

7.5 volts is too low. You want to see at least 2 volts or so higher than that. How long was the car sitting when you did the starter voltage test? If the battery was a little discharged then repeat after charging it and dissipating surface voltage (e.g. turn headlights on for 30 seconds prior to testing).

You may also want to do voltage drop testing on each of the positive (battery + to starter B terminal) and negative (battery - to starter case) circuits while cranking. I would suggest removing the fuse to the fuel pump and purging residual gas in the fuel system so you have a true cranking no-start situation while testing.

 

It probably sat for 12 hours or more, temp about 30 degrees. To my knowlege, the end of last winter she had one instance when the car didn't start and she needed a jump. I wasn't there but that's my understanding. I'll have her stop by in the next day or so and check the battery after she's been driving it. I'll get a battery charger on it and check it then also.

 

Only get your battery from places that will give you 3 years full replacement warranty. Costco is a great place to get it. Anything happens to the battery before 3 years, I just return it for a full refund and get a new one with another 3 years warranty. No questions asked or testing done. If the shop where you got your battery will not give you this deal, don't bother with them.

 

A battery at 7.5 V is considered to be discharged and the car should not start.

In fact, if it showed 11V I'd be surprised if it starts.

Respectfully - go buy a GOOD battery charger. Over your driving lifetime it will pay for itself many, many times over. make sure to get one that handles AGM batteries. I probably end up using a charger two or three times a year for my cars or my friends, and I have "float" chargers connected any time I plan to have a car parked for more than a week.

I have a similar charger to this one, NBC 90620. Here' a link: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NBC90620?impressionRank=10 . Don't want to spend the money? Then go cheaper, but buy something that will charge both lead and AGM (glass-mat) batteries.

I have two BMW 3-series and my 280ZX with AGM batteries, and a Jeep with a standard lead cell battery. This charger does it all. It charges standard or AGM batteries, can provide up to 80 amps at start, will maintain batteries.

Parts stores testing is always questionable. The one way you are 100% assured of having a fully charged battery is to have your own good quality charger.

 

A battery at 7.5 V is considered to be discharged and the car should not start.

In fact, if it showed 11V I'd be surprised if it starts.

Respectfully - go buy a GOOD battery charger. Over your driving lifetime it will pay for itself many, many times over. make sure to get one that handles AGM batteries. I probably end up using a charger two or three times a year for my cars or my friends, and I have "float" chargers connected any time I plan to have a car parked for more than a week.

I have a similar charger to this one, NBC 90620. Here' a link: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NBC90620?impressionRank=10 . Don't want to spend the money? Then go cheaper, but buy something that will charge both lead and AGM (glass-mat) batteries.

I have two BMW 3-series and my 280ZX with AGM batteries, and a Jeep with a standard lead cell battery. This charger does it all. It charges standard or AGM batteries, can provide up to 80 amps at start, will maintain batteries.

Parts stores testing is always questionable. The one way you are 100% assured of having a fully charged battery is to have your own good quality charger.

I have a 30 year old Schumacher charger, maybe time for a new one. It looks like my local Napa has one you mentioned. When I get access to her car I will get it load checked and charge it. I do have some concern about the alternator so hopefully the load test will prove its good. More to come.

 

Got my daughters car today. Went to a different Autozone and they load checked the battery and alternator. He said the battery checked ok but low charge. He was able check the alternator even with low voltage. He said the alternator was good. Got a new battery charger and after a couple of hours, the charger read 100% and went into maintain mode. I’ll let it settle overnight and get some readings in the morning. I also put 2 new battery terminals on. Below is before charging. I'll post pics in the morning,

 

Checked the battery this morning after charging to 100% per the battery charger last night, It sat in about 25 degree weather for about 18 hours. 53% doesn't seem very good nor the 7.6 volts on starting.

I think I did all of the things people suggested short of replacing the negative battery cable although I did replace both battery terminals. The negative cable is good at the battery.

I think the consensus was the battery is bad. It seems like that's confirmed now. I'll contact the place we got the battery from and try to have them replace it since its only 1.5 years old.

Does this seem correct?

 

Checked the battery this morning after charging to 100% per the battery charger last night, It sat in about 25 degree weather for about 18 hours. 53% doesn't seem very good nor the 7.6 volts on starting.
View attachment 54354

I think I did all of the things people suggested short of replacing the negative battery cable although I did replace both battery terminals. The negative cable is good at the battery.

I think the consensus was the battery is bad. It seems like that's confirmed now. I'll contact the place we got the battery from and try to have them replace it since its only 1.5 years old.

Does this seem correct?

Yes, the battery appears to not be taking a full charge. It should read around 12.3-12.6 volts if healthy with a full charge...

I don't understand why your app would rate the battery as "Great..."

 

Big surprise. Not. As usual on this and many car forums, the majority of problems start with a bad battery.

 

Especially for a battery relatively new.

 

I wonder why AutoZone's battery load tester didn't catch this...

 

They did say the battery was low and it might not be able to check the alternator.

 

Hmmm, you mentioned it sitting in 25 degree weather for 18 hours... That will lower the charge and starting voltage... It still looks like the battery is marginal even so...

Did it start? If so, did it crank strongly? Also, what was the temp during the battery charging?

Check this out:

Operating Temperature Ranges

Battery capacity and battery recharge times are all based on each cell having an electrolyte temperature of 25ºC (77ºF). Temperatures below the nominal 25ºC (77ºF) reduce the battery's effective capacity and lengthen the time to restore the batte...

support.rollsbattery.com

.

 

Hmmm, you mentioned it sitting in 25 degree weather for 18 hours... That will lower the charge and starting voltage... It still looks like the battery is marginal even so...

Did it start? If so, did it crank strongly? Also, what was the temp during the battery charging?

Check this out:

Operating Temperature Ranges

Battery capacity and battery recharge times are all based on each cell having an electrolyte temperature of 25ºC (77ºF). Temperatures below the nominal 25ºC (77ºF) reduce the battery's effective capacity and lengthen the time to restore the batte...

support.rollsbattery.com

.

It started and cranked fine. I was only present once when it was hard to start. I will try to have the battery replaced under warranty or I'll do it myself. I don't want her stranded in a Minnesota winter.
That 7.6V should never be that low, correct?

As a reference, I replaced a battery on my sons car that I purchased today. It was probably in the cold for 3 hours . I put the battery tester on it. I mistakenly set it for a battery with 640CCA, it should have been 650CCA. Much better readings but still a dip on starting.
Different battery !

 

7.6V does sound low... Especially compared to the new battery with 100% life and state of charge, and less resistance. Although your battery tester is still say starting voltage is low for the new battery, so I guess it can be discounted... Both the old and new batteries are both showing a good CCA according to the battery tester... However, the 975CCA makes me wonder... What is the brand and model number of it?

 

Its an Interstate battery. I plan to retest the new battery tonight because I didn't change the CCA to 650 on the tester so maybe that's why the high reading. 640 was the bad battery CCA. Makes me wonder more about the tester.

 

I wasn't clear, I was looking for the brand and model number of the tester. I agree, it makes me wonder too...

 

Its a run if the mill tester from Amazon. I looked for one that would record the results and most look like the same tester just branded different.

 

@I need coffee is right. It's a miracle that battery will start the vehicle. Any day now, it won't.

 

Thanks. That looks like it should be okay. It's strange that the new battery with good charge and state of charge still says the starting voltage is low... I guess when it says the starting voltage is low it can be ignored? Maybe it was due to the temperature at the time? Had it been sitting out in that 25 degree weather overnight like the older one?

 

If the starting voltage after sitting overnight is low, then the question is: how well was it charged when parked?

Use a multimeter and check the charge in the battery a few minutes after you park it. Should be 12.4 volts or so.

 

New battery installed, it was manufactured 11/21. Did the battery test and got this. Surprised at the 56%, maybe it will get better as its driven. It started fine.

I then did my truck. What I expected.

We will see. I'll put a meter on it after she drives it awhile.

 

I'd put on a trickle charger or at the 2 AMP charging rate overnight. You want to charge it to 100% State of Charge. A new battery needs to be charged to bring it up to 100%. Yes, it will charge over time via the alternator, but I would feel better bringing the charge up to 100% with a battery charger myself...

Did it mention anything regarding the starting voltage this time?

 

She did try to start it this afternoon before I got home. No start. Turned over well. I got 12.1 volts from the tester. I finally got it started by playing with the gas pedal. I started it 3 times after that normally. Did have a strong gas smell tho. Thought it was fixed. It’s on the charger now.