[crew219]

I wonder if it is a pad or rotor problem. Certainly Nissan must know how to make brakes, just do it like everybody else does. Do you suppose it's a bad batch of rotors from a supplier cutting corners on material?

Its pad compound . . . . there isn't much difference in metallurgy between rotors.

Jap cars tend to use very hard pads = high metallic content = noisy. I planned on switching to Axxis Deluxe Plus anyways once I get mine.

Dave

 

[GripperDon]

Are you sure? Take a Look at what zebelkhan said up above.

"While cleaning my wheels I noticed that the rotor surfaces were not as shiny as they should be. Upon closer inspection, I saw a thin layer or film of rust on them. I also noticed that after driving the car, the film goes away but comes back after the car has been parked overnight.

I have never seen this in another car I have owned. I mean all rotor surfaces rust but not this quickly. I wonder if this is contributing to the first "cold" squeel?"

 

[bob1]

TSB DONE!

UPDATE, just back from dealer,(20-Dec-04) performed TSB mentioned above in this thread. Left dealer lot and all is quiet. The real test is when the car is sitting outside with cold temps. Yes, it appears somehow the really cold temps seem to have an affect on these brakes. How I have come to this conclusion was just letting the car sit outside for several hours vs inside the semi-warm garage. The garage must be about 58 degrees F while temps outside lately have been as low as 15 or 19 degrees. When outside, the brakes would squeel like a stuck pig and inside the garage, nada.
I did leave the car at the dealer Sunday night so the squeel would surley be present on Monday AM. I made sure to put it in a spot where they would have to back it up. I left them a copy of the TSB.
I will update this post if it does not fix the problem. A side benefit to having this work done is getting new pads up front for free.
Stay tuned.
Bob1

 

[crew219]

Are you sure? Take a Look at what zebelkhan said up above.

"While cleaning my wheels I noticed that the rotor surfaces were not as shiny as they should be. Upon closer inspection, I saw a thin layer or film of rust on them. I also noticed that after driving the car, the film goes away but comes back after the car has been parked overnight.

I have never seen this in another car I have owned. I mean all rotor surfaces rust but not this quickly. I wonder if this is contributing to the first "cold" squeel?"

You're in AZ . . . there needs to be humidity in order for it to rust.

Dave

 

[GripperDon]

I'm in Arizona and He is on the coast in California!

 

[Gonzo]

If it helps anyone... mine use to sqeak and at some point without intervention... they stopped. ~6 months and 8,000MI latter. Go figure.

 

[Michael-Dallas]

Without reading 4 pages, has anybody tried this:

It won't eliminate the squeal, but it will make it non-audible for humans.

Brake squeal is normal and it's a factor of pad compound and temperature. The factory Ferodos for my 350z has a slight squeal in cold weather, but my ultra-agressive track pads will squeal on the street even in the Summer (however, pad temps get high enough at the track that the squeal goes away).

Michael.

 

[GripperDon]

This is only a hypothesis. The rotors contain some Iron in them ( carbon, nickle, carbon who knows or care but some iron) Iron will oxidize. The pads rub off this iron oxide (rust). This rust collects on the pads. The rust tends to cohere to the Iron and then has to "let go" this repeaters and repeats. The grabbing and releasing occurs at high frequency and this is "heard" as a squeal. A additive soaks into the pad and stops or changes the nature of the material building up on the pad so it either no longer grabs and releases or doest it a lot faster raising the frequency of action and the sound we hear of this action occurring.

 

[hfelknor]

It seems this goes in cycles.

Now we are at the "It's Normal" cycle.
And this is from an owner, not a service department!

Look, brakes squealing is NOT normal. And by the way, let's not get into a "If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to hear it....................is there a "sound""
A squeal, by definition, can be heard. If there is a vibration above human hearing, that's what it is, a vibration. A squeal is a human definition for a high pitched sound that can be heard.

So. A very loud squeal while backing up is not normal.

That is why Nissan has a TSB to FIX the problem.
Service Bulletin Num : 04011
Date of Bulletin: JAN 21, 2004 View Document

Component: BRAKES
Summary: REDUCTION OF FRONT BRAKE NOISE WHEN BRAKING IN REVERSE, COLD

Nissan doesn't fix what is normal. The Fix BTW is a DIFFERENT set of Brake pads. Not a new set, but a different set.

At least in my case, it worked. It was done at about 5000 miles and I am now at 12000 miles without the problem returning.
I would imagine it works in all cases. All they are doing is breaking up the "sympathetic" conditions that cause the squeal.

If you are talking about a "slight squeak", you don't have the problem.
The problem is that the "marriage" between the parts sets up a sympathetic vibration, that we who have/had the problem can hear AT least a half mile away. That is NOT an exaggeration.


Brake squealing USED to be normal. But I haven't had it on any of my cars for YEARS.

99 Miata
97 Chrysler T&C
94 SC Tbird
93 Jaguar XV8
89 Mustang 5.0
89 SHO


Those cars were all purchased new. None squealed LOUDLY(Obviously a few minor squeals when a pebble got caught in the pad, is not what I am talking about)
Had any of them Squealed LOUDLY, I would have returned them. NONE of them had a TSB to address loud brakes. None of them.

So two points.
1- We have to define the "problem".
Again, if you can't hear it a half mile away, you don't have "the problem".
2- TSB 04011
and Nisssan does not develop and TSBs to address what is normal.


Homer


Michael, gooping the brakes was done by the factory. And if you do it, it might even work. Anything to break up this sympathetic mating of parts could help. As a matter of fact, that's what my dealer did before the TSB was developed. In my case it helped for a couple of weeks, then this LOUD squeal returned.
I nearly sold the car because of it.


Gripper, it appears that the WHOLE rotor rusts. Not just the part that comes in contact with the pads. I suspect that this is, in the end, the real problem with the Brake Squeal. Since none of the other Nissans have rotors that rust overnight, I suspect the compound of the rotor was changed. As to the fix, It's cheaper to change the pads.
BTW I see that you have now made more posts in a few weeks than I have made in over a year! Congratulations, I guess.:1:


3:42 AM?! I can't sleep!

 

[crew219]

Without reading 4 pages, has anybody tried this:

It won't eliminate the squeal, but it will make it non-audible for humans.

Brake squeal is normal and it's a factor of pad compound and temperature. The factory Ferodos for my 350z has a slight squeal in cold weather, but my ultra-agressive track pads will squeal on the street even in the Summer (however, pad temps get high enough at the track that the squeal goes away).

Michael.

Thats for caliper pins not pads.

 

[crew219]

It seems this goes in cycles.

Now we are at the "It's Normal" cycle.
And this is from an owner, not a service department!

Look, brakes squealing is NOT normal. And by the way, let's not get into a "If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to hear it....................is there a "sound""
A squeal, by definition, can be heard. If there is a vibration above human hearing, that's what it is, a vibration. A squeal is a human definition for a high pitched sound that can be heard.

So. A very loud squeal while backing up is not normal.

That is why Nissan has a TSB to FIX the problem.
Service Bulletin Num : 04011
Date of Bulletin: JAN 21, 2004 View Document

Component: BRAKES
Summary: REDUCTION OF FRONT BRAKE NOISE WHEN BRAKING IN REVERSE, COLD

Nissan doesn't fix what is normal. The Fix BTW is a DIFFERENT set of Brake pads. Not a new set, but a different set.

At least in my case, it worked. It was done at about 5000 miles and I am now at 12000 miles without the problem returning.
I would imagine it works in all cases. All they are doing is breaking up the "sympathetic" conditions that cause the squeal.

If you are talking about a "slight squeak", you don't have the problem.
The problem is that the "marriage" between the parts sets up a sympathetic vibration, that we who have/had the problem can hear AT least a half mile away. That is NOT an exaggeration.


Brake squealing USED to be normal. But I haven't had it on any of my cars for YEARS.

99 Miata
97 Chrysler T&C
94 SC Tbird
93 Jaguar XV8
89 Mustang 5.0
89 SHO


Those cars were all purchased new. None squealed LOUDLY(Obviously a few minor squeals when a pebble got caught in the pad, is not what I am talking about)
Had any of them Squealed LOUDLY, I would have returned them. NONE of them had a TSB to address loud brakes. None of them.

So two points.
1- We have to define the "problem".
Again, if you can't hear it a half mile away, you don't have "the problem".
2- TSB 04011
and Nisssan does not develop and TSBs to address what is normal.


Homer


Michael, gooping the brakes was done by the factory. And if you do it, it might even work. Anything to break up this sympathetic mating of parts could help. As a matter of fact, that's what my dealer did before the TSB was developed. In my case it helped for a couple of weeks, then this LOUD squeal returned.
I nearly sold the car because of it.


Gripper, it appears that the WHOLE rotor rusts. Not just the part that comes in contact with the pads. I suspect that this is, in the end, the real problem with the Brake Squeal. Since none of the other Nissans have rotors that rust overnight, I suspect the compound of the rotor was changed. As to the fix, It's cheaper to change the pads.
BTW I see that you have now made more posts in a few weeks than I have made in over a year! Congratulations, I guess.:1:


3:42 AM?! I can't sleep!

Have any of you guys heard of bedding your pads? Semi-metallic pads tend to squeal a lot more than organic pads and therefore need to be occasionally bedded in order to keep the mating surfaces level with one another.

Rotors rust, its a fact of life. Some hats don't rust because they're cadmium plated, however rust doesn't affect performance on the hat.

I wouldn't be surprised to find grooving of the rotors in those who do experience brake squeal. Perhaps they should be taught a lesson in braking.

Rust gets wiped off the rotor usually in the first full brake depression. For the most part, it collects on the side of the brake pad. Washing your brakes every once in awhile also helps. My guess is that the squeals are a result of not bedding the pads / uneven wear / pad compound (semi metallic). Just to make a point, the two muranos that I drove were not driven for awhile and both had rust on the rotors (I live in the freakin desert too), not a peep from both rotors when I pulled out of the parking spot.

For those of who you have no idea WTH bedding is . . . .

http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm

Dave

 

[Michael-Dallas]

Thats for caliper pins not pads.

Lemme try this again. Has anybody tried this:

Michael.

 

[GripperDon]

Not trying to bug you CREW219, I was just letting you know that the member who posted his rotors rusted, lived where the humidity is higher than here. I guess I mistakenly thought that you indicated I lived where there is no humidity available to rust the rotors, and to be honest I didn't want to be disagreeable and say that they rust here in the dester also.

I do think that a lot of the rust comes off on the side of the pad but some is also on the face. I believe that the deposition on the face may contribute to squealing. Additionally I was trying to provide my hypothsis into where squeal comes from. I also feel face rust the most, as it is the fresh surface as scrubbed by the pad upon braking.

Please take my inputs as simple posts, I am not directing my comments to anyone (unless so noted) just answering other posts in what I hope is an illustrative way.

Homer, You are right Rust can be eveywhere, I don't have squeal and did not see any rust when I painted the calipers, Guess I am lucky or that it has not shown up yet. Finally, I guess I talk (post) too much, I am just so enthused by the MO. It is exciting to have a vehicle again that I can "Play With"

 

[Michael-Dallas]

Now we are at the "It's Normal" cycle.
And this is from an owner, not a service department!

Because it is normal. Otherwise, Permatex would not sell the lube at your neighborhood AutoZone or the factory Ferodos on my Z would not come w/ a packet of copper "stuff." Yes, even the factory Ferodos that the Nissan parts counter sells for my Z includes a packet of lube to quiet the brakes (the non-Track models don't include this paste).

Look, brakes squealing is NOT normal. And by the way, let's not get into a "If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to hear it....................is there a "sound""
A squeal, by definition, can be heard. If there is a vibration above human hearing, that's what it is, a vibration. A squeal is a human definition for a high pitched sound that can be heard.

Without pulling out the 8th grade science book, sound is [basically, in a nutshell] air vibrating. If it's audible by humans, then the frequency is in the range that humans pick up. If it's audible by dogs (and not humans), then the frequency is in the range that canines pick up.

When you rub two surfaces together (such as a rotor and a brake pad), you're creating friction. That friction is creating a vibration. That vibration may be audible by humans if the frequency is in that range as a squeal. The anti-squeal paste dampens and alters the frequency of that squeal so it's not audible by humans.

Nissan doesn't fix what is normal. The Fix BTW is a DIFFERENT set of Brake pads. Not a new set, but a different set.

And Nissan doesn't necessarily fix what is truly broken. If enough owners complain about steering feel, then Nissan will have a TSB on that too TO KEEP CUSTOMERS HAPPY. But that doesn't necessarily mean the steering is broken.

Like I said, brake squeal is a function of pad material and temperature. My guess is that for such a heavy vehicle, Nissan opted for relatively small (and lighter) rotors. Consequently, to achieve the same brake performance, you will have to go to the next level in pad material. Unfortunately, if the brakes aren't w/in their temp range (i.e. in the mornings when it's cold), then you will get a squeal. If you TRULY understand how brakes work, then you'll understand that I'm not feeding you a line of BS.

And, unless the pad compound is the same, the fix you received further proves my point regarding the characteristics of pad compound and temperature.

If you are talking about a "slight squeak", you don't have the problem.
The problem is that the "marriage" between the parts sets up a sympathetic vibration, that we who have/had the problem can hear AT least a half mile away. That is NOT an exaggeration.

I bet my Z w/ my Hawk Blue racing pads (which will destroy rotors if the pads aren't up to operating temp, BTW) squeals MUCH louder and MUCH longer than anybody's factory pads on their Murano on the street (they get up to temp at the track and the squeal goes away).

Brake squealing USED to be normal. But I haven't had it on any of my cars for YEARS.

99 Miata
97 Chrysler T&C
94 SC Tbird
93 Jaguar XV8
89 Mustang 5.0
89 SHO

And compare the curb weight, rotor size, payload capacity, towing capacity, and pad compound of these vehicles w/ the Murano. For a 3800lb vehicle (excluding payload and towing weight), 12.6/12.13" rotors are tiny. In comparison, my 3200lb Track model Z has 12.8/12.7" rotors (and I still need race pads to stop at the track!).

Brake components are not rocket science, in fact, Nissan probably shares the same brake components w/ some of the other Nissan/Infiniti line up. And the calipers and rotors are probably outsourced from a parts supplier that supplies same design calipers and rotors (but different size) for other automotive OEM.

Michael.

Regarding rotors, they are the run-of-the-mill iron rotors. They're not ceramic like on the Ferrari Enzo or Porsche 911 GT-3. And clean iron surfaces w/ moisture will rust. If the brakes are bedded-in correctly, then the rotors will have a tint (usually blue); that area will be more rust-resistant.

 

[Michael-Dallas]

I believe that the deposition on the face may contribute to squealing.

GD, when brake pads are properly bedded-in, then the rotor face should have a tinted hue (see my post above).

The purpose of bedding in brake pads is to:

1- burn off the binding chemicals in the pad; if these chemicals are not burned off, then the gas that is generated when they boil will cause pad fade (the feeling when you're not stopping when you hit the brakes no matter how much pressure you apply to the brake pedal) by not allowing contact between rotor and pad.

2- transfer a thin film of pad material on the rotor face (hence, the tint); brakes work by two types of friction, adherrent friction and abrasive friction. Abrasive friction should be obvious. Adherrent friction is when pad compound molecules break and re-make bonds. In order for adherrent friction to work, there must be a thin film of pad material on the rotor. The pad molecules will break off the pad and make a bond w/ the pad molecules on the rotor face, vice versa.

If you see uneven deposition on your rotors (i.e. splotches), then you have overheated your brake pads. For the most part, the pad (if aggressive enough) will self-clean the rotors -- just be easy on the brakes and let the abrasive friction of the pad compound clean the rotor face.

Michael.

 

[GripperDon]

Now, That's a POST! Thanks good info.

 

[crew219]

Everything mike said above is correct. Check the link I posted earlier for instructions on bedding.

Grip: no hard feelings (if you took it that way). I post to give information and to correct anything that might have been misunderstood. I was thinking along the same lines as you were when you were mentioning the rusting. Depending on the pad compound, some rust might get embedded in the pad but that won't really cause the sound issues. Mike got it right.

Dave

 

[GripperDon]

The making and remaking of the bond is what I refered to in my post earlier. This repeated action of bond-release-bond, liberates some of the energy being absorbed by the braking action and a portion of that we rear as a squeal. The various kinds of fluids effect this process one of the way is to change the level of breakaway time there by altering the frequency produced.

So I guess we both have it right, The descriptions being from differing points of view.

In an eariler post you refered to pads seperating from backing. By the way the glue most reliable for pads (when glued obviously) is based upon Cashew nuts. While at Bendix one of my departments developed it, still in use today as having great high temperature properties, especially good for ceramatilics. Now! talk about squeal, that friction lab sounded like a bunch of pigs were having their tails twisted.

 

[bob1]

Curses !

Bah, Humbug, the noise has returned. Mr squeal is back and meaner then ever. After going through hoops leaving the MO overnight so that the noise would be heard in the morning, after celebrating that the noise was confirmed by the dealer, after getting the TSB done and new pads, yada, yada. No satisfaction!!!
The squeal is there after just one day. I said I would post to update you folks if it did not work. Well, I'm posting and letting you know the TSB did not fix the cold pad back-up syndrom. Yes, it's one time in the morning and only in reverse but like many of you I like everything at showroom condition. My MO did not groan until 13000 miles, now I'm groaning.
Anyone have a fix? Anyone try Michael-Dallas's brake spray?
Bob1

 

[GripperDon]

BAck in when you park at night.